Literary discussions

[zahrania]

hi everybody.. i have a suggestion .. but i'm not sure about it coz i dont see a lot of traffic in this section of the forums.. anyway, here is what i think:
We all agree on a certain book or novel and start reading it with deadlines and disscus what we read in the forum, for example we decide that this week we're gonna read Romeo and Juliet and that we have 5 days for inscance for us to discuss X chapters .. and so on
this way we read more books and most importantly have a strong motive to do so.....

[hearty00]

Asalam alikom
good idea , i am giong to take part in this discussion

[White Lily]

Great Idea
This is probarly one of the best methods we dtudied in methodology to enhance extinsive reading
In sha Allah i'll take part in this subject ,so which book you want to start with..

[hearty00]

ok we should start as soon as possible , by the way i' ve noticed that you are both of you from palistine the land of Peace and of shuhadda in the cause of Allah allow me to give you a special wolcome and inshallah we will return palitene to an Arabic state soon
ameen waslam
wasalam

[White Lily]

Thnx for these nice words
In sha Allah Palestine will be free soooooon

now what do you think of Lord of the Flies
a novel by William Golding was written near 1954
it's great and it's about kids , but it implies more than the mere words
if you all like to start with this novel then wow
if not plz suggest a nother book

[zahrania]

of thank you both for answering and special thanx to u hearty for ur support

ok i think this novel is good... but hey are we gonna be three bas !!! any way.. i'll start reading the book tomorry , i've never done before.. so its a good choice coz i didnt know the book nor the author..
so .. let's start our discussion

[Haniscape]

OK and i'll support your good effort
your topic is pinned to be seen by as many members as possible

[hearty00]

salam alikom

here we go then im oking for a copy of thisbook on the net , f it is available with someone of you , please , display it so that everyone start reading it , wish you happy new year by the way .
ps: thank you friend for your efforts

[White Lily]

Okay I'm very glad that all of you are motivated to read the novel
I've bought the books recently and I'll try to find it on the web then bring it to all of you
The first chapter is called the sound of the shell
when all of you start reding it , give me the green light and In sha Allah we'll all strart discussing it from our own points of view
i'm really exited about this subject

[White Lily]

HI again ,
well, here you are the link to download the novel with one sound tract and some pictures
hope you'll all like it
http://rapidshare.com/files/12650076/LordOfTheFlies.rar

plz don't be late for the discussion

[zahrania]

first i wanna thank the supervisor for keeping the thread sticky !!
ok .. i think to have a deadline is the best thing to do... so let it be on Wed for us to post what we think of chapters 1-4 .. i've already read the first two .. but i'll keep my opinions till i reach the end of CH 4 so i comitt to the rule ;)

[White Lily]

Great, Zahrania
I hope you like it
okay for the first two chapters I think all the major characters are inroduced including Ralph , Jack , Simon,samenEric and some other boys

[hearty00]

:smailes101: i can not believe , i have lost faith to find the book , sister you a real angel , i guess we have to pay our share of the book , i wonder how much it cost ?

at all costs , i download it and i m giong to browse on it
Thank you so much

[White Lily]

Thnx hearty00
you are mostly welcome , I meant i bought the book but the e book i found it on the net so the price is nothing
I hope you are enjoing reading it now

[hearty00]

surely i got it wrong , i thought you have bought the book from the net , but this is not giong to change my earlier statement by no means , you see what i mean you have done good to show up the ebook .from the first reading seems it is an interesting adventure , i am reading it at moment carelfully and at the same time i put down my observations so expect a detailed analysis inshallah , though i prefer someone map out the steps we are giong to pursue in our analysis , i mean if a summary , de******ion of the characters and such stuff should be included or not , one last think i see the members aren't motivated to enough take part in our discussion .
WHASSUP GUYS

[White Lily]

I don't know why we don't have more participants. this forum gotta be fun. well, I think every thing needs the first step and with the little participation we are making the first step , so cheer up brother Hearty and SIster Zahrania

Okay , I think we are ought to talk about a plot summary or a summary in general . if you like we can make summary for each chapter. we need to interpret and write our own views and opinions and NOt just bringing the analysis from other websites.this will benefit us more . Also we need to write about the characters and the themes and every thought that come up to our minds when reading this novel
well hearty 00 you started with the first thought which seemed to you as an adventure which will not be untill the end. some actions are really??? ... you have to read it to know .

DOn't forget our deadline every body

[hearty00]

I don't know why we don't have more participants. this forum gotta be fun. well, I think every thing needs the first step and with the little participation we are making the first step , so cheer up brother Hearty and SIster Zahrania

i discussed this with my friend Ola , ad i was like people here are maily interest to hack up programms to learn English , whereas if we never try what lear, we would never learn something your regular participation along with Zahrania wil indeed make other members interested on what 's ging on here indeed
Okay , I think we are ought to talk about a plot summary or a summary in general . if you like we can make summary for each chapter. we need to interpret and write our own views and opinions and NOt just bringing the analysis from other websites.this will benefit us more . Also we need to write about the characters and the themes and every thought that come up to our minds when reading this novel
well hearty 00 you started with the first thought which seemed to you as an adventure which will not be untill the end. some actions are really??? ... you have to read it to know .
yes indeed , though i pressed with time i try to fix a while to read it seems it is good story , up till now i am aout to finish the second chapter , yes i read too slowly, this is due that i try to write every ideas lest i 'd forget something

[hearty00]

Without any attempt of a boring introduction (that I personally hate because they get me yawned before I turn up the first page of any classical novel) William Golding get the audience (of LordOfTheFlies) penetrated into the scene of “a junglelike” setting on the footsteps of a fair boy, as simply as that, those were all the necessary ingredients of a delightful adventure going to take place, all of a sudden a sound “with a witch like cry “Hi” it said. Wait a minute!” & another character is involved in the events.
At first glance, may be the importance of “Piggy” in the structure of the story seems to set up “Ralph” as a “distinct Hero” that holds some particular characteristic either physically (, fair hair, fair boy stopped and jerked his stockings with an automatic gestures….) or his personal charisma (made the jungle seem for a moment like the Home Counties) that would allow him later on to bear the responsibility to lead his fellowship as a leader ; as against the orphan “Piggy” physically he is described as a fat boy (shorter than the fair boy) who is incapable of a safe deal with his new environment “I can’t hardly move with all these creeper things” “ the naked crooks of his knees were pump, caught ad scratched by thorns” without the interference of a “grown up” that’s why his first question when he meet Ralph was “where is the man with megaphones” and Ralph’s reply was “Perhaps there aren’t any grownups anywhere” . here we have got the impression that our Hero is nonchalantly doesn’t share Piggy’s sense of security that for him seems lies in the palms of grownups rather than anyone else; further we will see him echoing “my auntie” almost before he bounds to any sort of a daring action, at the point it would get on the nerves of “Ralph” saying “Sucks WITH ANTUIE “
By this William Calling is trying to assert the genuinely traits of Hero which is oftentimes natural and innate that don’t need any derivative preparations beforehand.
As the events follow and the boys made acquaintance to each other the setting of the jungle is changed into the ambiance of a shore which (was fledged with palm trees), this new atmosphere totally captured the attention of our hero as it is the first time we see him pensive (Ralph left the perspective of the palm and the beach and the water drew him to a point of infinity…) a new sensation of loftiness is to be felt when he hung the nature as he might be like a (there among the skull-like coconuts with green shadow from the palms and the forest sliding over his skin…) therefore he become conscious of the an genuine sensations sensed in nature (forced at last to believe in the reality of the island laughed delightedly again and stood on his head ..)
Surprisingly, we are informed by “Piggy” of the existence of other characters rather than himself and “Ralph”; hence they should found a channel to get together. Before this is accomplished Ralph now is enjoying his dwelt at the platform by discovering and chancing upon some unexpected events to occur that were anyways more delightful for him ; whereas Piggy’s anxiety is increasing about what going to happen if they stayed lost in the island, repeating ghastly “We may stay here till we die”. Soon Piggy’s fright ceased when they brook out to a Shell which meant for him that there is a trace of life and human being in the spot where they are lost and at last there is someone could rescue them. The same shell would be a perfect tool to call up all the boys strewn in the island for a meeting which it had been successfully held, though an unexpected visitors are going to attend their summon .”Jack” the leader of this group seems the only one dares to share the characteristic of a charismatic leader that would emulate Ralph on the position of leadership. When they all pact on the necessity of someone to lead them. Playfully an election is going to take place and all agreed on Ralph as their leader whose first commands promptly were directed to an expedition to discover the Island, for that he pick three boys Simon, Jack and himself.
Triumphantly the three boys dispatched to explore the island. After a weave of disputes and closures the boys finally reached the end of the island, this assumption would not be fulfilled until they reached the summit of a mountain when Ralph would declare their ownership to the Island by this statement “This belongs to us” afterward, all of them tasted the right of domination precisely Jack and Ralph who are at the moment deciding what are the necessary steps they should precede in order survive is this uninhabited island. Immediately Jack adjudicated that they are needy for food, and then he hunted a Pig when they came across it.
Ironically, William Golding have chosen a Pig to be their first means of survival of the boys’ new situation, also he depicted this process (of hunting a pig) as a painful task for them ,though it is necessary. This Pig may be an ill-moaned event is to displease the life of the Guys especially that one of them is nicknamed with “Piggy”.
I didn’t finish reading the other chapters so this last argument may be just an unnecessarily observation. however it would push me more to go on reading

[White Lily]

Congratulations brother hearty 00
this is one of the most thourough and carful deep analysis i've ever read.I think you covered the most important points but allow me to add some thing about the characters. Ralph seems the good guy with his qualities you mentioned earlier while Jack is the bad guy. Jack is first introduced as a leader of the choir who was walking for a long time with no stop. Simon is the boy who faints at some level of the walk 'cause he was tired. this shows how cruel the leader is . The aspect of civilization is the elections.they made electios to choose the leader of them while they are on the island. When most of the boys elected Ralph , Jack showed his anger in a silent way while Ralph told him that he can still be the leader of the choir or Hunters. I pitty Piggy as he is the weakest characters.he seems as if he got his education from a very strict invionment which abviously was his Untie. his name is not known and I wonder will we know his name by the end of the novel? his nickname is piggy and he deas'nt like to be called piggy.when Ralph told the rest of the boys "this is piggy"he was very sad and told Ralph " I told you i didn't want them to call me piggy" . Also the shell they found have a great effect on the boys because now they are exposed to a more-I can say- natural invionment. piggy is the one who found it but he can't blow it because of his Asthma . it is a disease that make it hard to breathe sometimes.
I think this is all for chapter 1 . if any one likes to add then he's mostly welcome.

[hearty00]

yes thank you for your kind reply i bear you comments in mind let me here start off the second chapter , however as you said anyone has further comment on the first chapter he may take the floor indeed.here we go
If we relate the title of the second chapter with the last event took place in the first chapter we will be sure that troubles are about to occur, also the title “Fire on the mountain” is a crystal clear indications that we should also pay little heed to the utilization of light by William Golding another lecture of the use of “Fire” might be like as the official beginning of a civilised society start off with the burst of Fire. So kind of conflict we are to witness? Is this going to impact on the relationship between the boys? Who is going to be victimized?

The use of light (the afternoon sun slanted in from the other side of the platform…) (the sun slanted in and lay golden over half the platform) Golding utilized this element of light after Piggy attempt to level-headed a good judgement that left his audience silent (The silence was so complete that they could hear the unevenness of Piggy’s breathing.
_Ralph pursue his role of leadership perfectly (the first task he would confront is to give a speech merrily) show his capability to influence the crowd by exerting a merry speech and at the same time preserve his authority. This statement made by him declare the authoritarian role he is about to perform and the need of law- making in order to control the crowd (we can’t have everybody talking at once) hence the conch-law allow everyone who likes to speak and the rest of his fellow listen too him as soon as he lift the conch; later on we‘ll see into what extend this law would be respected and obeyed.
_another event that set Ralph as a leader while instinctively trying to carry on his authority and at the same time to balance & satisfy the desires of the members of his trip is when the little children expressed their fright of the existence “snake-thing” this story which will made him the mockery of the members of his “trip” , this gave the occasion to Jack to boast his force if really there is a beastie or snake-thing he would kill it; Ralph on the other hand asserted loudly for all the members that there is nothing they should fear about
_the best way to govern and a governor be respected by the rest of his subjects is to show up once interest on the issues that hinder the development of a given society and try to represent solutions to surpass it; such attitude are clearly seen when Ralph ordered the boys to kindle a fire in the top of the mountain so that if a passing ship sees the burning would come to their rescue. However, Ralph could not fulfil this missionary by himself; the thick glasses of Piggy were helpful this time, it is by this act William Golding build up a wise sound the existence of Piggy represent it, this of course will also contradict the fierce behaviours of Jack. Hence a conflict is naturally begotten we are going to attest its manifestation when Piggy said indignantly “I got the conch” “You let me speak” The conch doesn’t count on of the top of the mountain” said Jack “so you shut up” “I got the conch—“Jack turned fiercely. “You shut up!”
By this we witness the right of Piggy to express himself freely was violated by Jack, thus the disobedience of law the boys committed themselves to it firsthand.
As result Piggy who represents the voice of right is “wilted”. Ralph took the conch from him and looked round the circle of boys. This scene Jack exerted an subconscious violations of Freedom of speech when Piggy opened his mouth to speak, caught Jack’s eyes and shut it again

_Jack care more to show up what he is capable of force to establish his authority (Jack broke in. All the same you need an army—for hunting. Hunting pigs…. Jack slammed his knife into a trunk and looked around challenging)
So in this new born civilisation the conflict of interest bound more or less to violate the law and the freedom of speech that has been keenly curbed by the authoritarian attitudes of “Jack inclined to show up his force which is though necessary tool to survive. This brings to question the role of the leader to equalize Force and wisdom (Jack vs. Piggy) without any of them counterpoise or exclude the other. In what extend Ralph would succeed to bear on this weighty burden? The coming chapter certainly load an answer.
Hither we leave the second chapter and Ralph in his impasse to escape his misfortune after the appearance of the snakes.
Ralph muttered the reply as if in shame. “Perhaps he went back to the, the –“beneath them, on the unfriendly side of the mountain, the drum-roll continued.

[White Lily]

at this point I think we have new symbols of civilization. i think Golding wanted to express how English boys who are the most civilized country are going to cope with the changes and the new situation. I thought that reading something about the author will help us a great deal in realizing the hidden meaning of the novel and the motives that drove him to write such a theme. well,not mentioning when he was born and these stuff ,the most important thing is that he was a head master of a public school.And public schools in England are those were the high rank and the rich people sign thier children in. As a head master of a school ,Golding has a deeper knowledge of how children act sme times and how they think and respond. This is seen when Ralph says it will be an adventure, like treasure Island or the Coral island and here the author is inviting us to read the other novels he suggested in his own one and compare between them. Also, I've read that in Lord of the Flies ,there is a missing chapter . When he first wrote this novel , the first chapter was talking about a huge nuclear war in Britain and that all England was threatened to be hit by nuclear weapons, so the authorities made an evacuation of the country by taking all the children (I cant remember whether children of England or just the public schools), to an island that is far a way from the nuclear threats. then the pln the carries those childrewn crashes after being hit by a weapon of the war and then those children are on this island that we are dealing with. When Golding introduced this novel to publishers they did not accept it so some one adviced him to ommit the first chapter and change the title of the novel from Strangers From Within to Lord of the Flies . may be because readers will not be attracted to such a harsh title . All these things help us understand some parts of the novel. I agree with Brother Hearty00 that fire is one sign of civilization. like the elections in the first chapter . Also the consh shell which piggy found while walking near the shore with Ralph. This consh is very important in the novel because it means order and discpline. if any of the boys want to talk they have to hold the consh . this organization is characteised by those English schools . the question is : will they be organized and civilized untill the end of the novel , well i don't think so , but sure we have to complete the novel to figure whether this will be or not. Now the most important points in this chapter are covered in the previous respond by brother hearty so i think there is no need torepeat my self

[hearty00]

at this point I think we have new symbols of civilization. i think Golding wanted to express how English boys who are the most civilized country are going to cope with the changes and the new situation. I thought that reading something about the author will help us a great deal in realizing the hidden meaning of the novel and the motives that drove him to write such a theme. well,not mentioning when he was born and these stuff ,the most important thing is that he was a head master of a public school.And public schools in England are those were the high rank and the rich people sign thier children in. As a head master of a school ,Golding has a deeper knowledge of how children act sme times and how they think and respond. This is seen when Ralph says it will be an adventure, like treasure Island or the Coral island and here the author is inviting us to read the other novels he suggested in his own one and compare between them. Also, I've read that in Lord of the Flies ,there is a missing chapter . When he first wrote this novel , the first chapter was talking about a huge nuclear war in Britain and that all England was threatened to be hit by nuclear weapons, so the authorities made an evacuation of the country by taking all the children (I cant remember whether children of England or just the public schools), to an island that is far a way from the nuclear threats. then the pln the carries those childrewn crashes after being hit by a weapon of the war and then those children are on this island that we are dealing with. When Golding introduced this novel to publishers they did not accept it so some one adviced him to ommit the first chapter and change the title of the novel from Strangers From Within to Lord of the Flies . may be because readers will not be attracted to such a harsh title . All these things help us understand some parts of the novel. I agree with Brother Hearty00 that fire is one sign of civilization. like the elections in the first chapter . Also the consh shell which piggy found while walking near the shore with Ralph. This consh is very important in the novel because it means order and discpline. if any of the boys want to talk they have to hold the consh . this organization is characteised by those English schools . the question is : will they be organized and civilized untill the end of the novel , well i don't think so , but sure we have to complete the novel to figure whether this will be or not. Now the most important points in this chapter are covered in the previous respond by brother hearty so i think there is no need torepeat my self

Asalam alikom
yes i agree with you sister when you said that reading about the auther' s biography might helps discover some stories behind the a given work , actually , this one way , other would say i would like to foucus mainly on the work itself , anyway i will not agrue with you in this stand what it is the perfect way to pursue our criticizm to the novel what is necessary is to try an objective essay primary.
i agree you also when you read the first chapter and second you feel like there is somthing missing there , or the question that pose itself what the hell those boys are doing in that jungle ! later on i knew that censorship was behind answering this important question from the begining in the novel , whereas in the forth Willaim mentioned something about this (nuclear war) though implicitely, anyhow we are giong to analyse every nook and crany in this chapter , Allah willing

[hearty00]

salam again
here are my comments on the third chapter , i am waitting your own interpretations and discussions:smailes81:
In the third chapter we are allowed to book the tickets to the realms of tow completely contradictory expeditions, for the first one, surly we’d return exhausted and empty handed; whereas the second we’d attain an ABSORBING excursion for our pleasure, and between this and that our leader pensive as usual “Ralph looked up, frowning, from the complication of leaves. He did not notice Jack even when he saw him”
now he feels the pressure & the load of the responsibility lies on his shoulders and he has to fulfil his duty.
He was about to start a quarrel with Jack for he is nonchalantly heedful for the interest of the group, more than that he only bringing harm to them. Ralph explained.
“Been working for days now. And look!”
Two shelters were in position, but shaky. This one was a ruin
Thus; only destruction can be attainable from Jack, and Ralph survived this angrily.
The notion of work and responsibility are clearly posed by William Golding to the debate. When Ralph started criticizing Jack about his irresponsibility to contribute on the interest of the group (by building shelters); Jack claimed that he is also working for the get the meat for them by (hunting); but Ralph doubted his true intention behind hunting only by quenching his desire to blood (authority), besides the result of his deeds did only brought harm to the collective efforts.
In this scene
but we want meat
And I worked all the day with nothing but Simon and you come back and don’t even notice the huts
I was working too
But you like it shouted Ralph. You want to hunt while I
William Golding contrasts the restrictive (and sometimes destructive) benefits of a work meant to yield the interest of a personal desire; with its direct counterpoint “the collective effort” which it is meant to harvest an extended interest. However this latter is always characterised by the turmoil and boredom and this is mentioned by Ralph when he was admonishing Jack.
Henceforth; Simon is chosen by the author to lead another excursion different to the one we run into at the opening of this chapter which was marked by an intensive atmosphere and benighted forcing depression and dejection for the perceiver. On the hand Simon expedition wiche is more delightful and lightful than the previous one lead by Jack.

[White Lily]

This is another great analysis for the third chapter
every time I'm about to write one ,you write every thing:smailes43:
so I just add for not repeating the same thing.
So, I promise to write the analysis for chapter four soon after finishing it

Thank you very much for keeping this forum up::smailes35: :

[White Lily]

Assalamu Alikum
Sorry for this late interpretation but the electricity went off for some time
now here is the analysis of chapter four Painted faces and ,long hair

[White Lily]

The differentiation is made in this chapter between the littleuns and the beginus where as the first stands for those younger kids younger kids of the group while the later describes the elderly. I think this is one type of irony ‘cause they are all just kids. the beguns are under the leadership of Ralph as stated in the previous chapters . they are taking more responsibility in taking care of everything . Also there is a new conflict introduced in this chapter. Jonny, Percival, and Henry were all playing together when Maurice and Roger came along and start kicking and destroying the sand castles they built. Maurice has some kind of remorse which did not stop him from hurting the other boys.
I think in the regular circumstances , this could be considered as childish acts .but in this novel ,because those kids are taking the full responsibility of their life and survival , Roger stands for evil and hatred.
Now the thing that those children where thinking of since the first moment on the island” food, meet, and pigs” . they wanted to hunt a pig to eat it -YUCKY-. But they weren’t able to . maybe because they didn’t get used to killing and seeing bloody scenes.
Jack thinks that if he paints his face and make some under covered hunting , pigs won’t see him and they won’t run away. This will give him a greater chance to hunt his pig.

Where as this group was getting more savage and more primitive , Piggy was thinking of making a clock or a sundial by the sticks they had which was mocked by Ralph when ha said “” and we an make a TV set….” . Also in this chapter ,because of the carelessness of some boys , they missed a ship that might have rescued them if they would have kept the fire on in the first place . Ralph and Piggy were angry and Piggy said “they let the bloody fire out ”. Maybe Piggy was pointing to the previous accident in chapter three when the fire broke out of control and one boy was missing who is probably was killed with the fire .
One the other hand, Jack and Roger with some other kids came singing Kill the pig, cut her throat, spill her blood. They came happily ‘cause they hunted the pig. Ralph didn’t care, instead he yelled at Jack saying “Yet you let the fire out”. He blamed him for not sticking to the rules. When Piggy start blaming him “you didn’t ought to have let the fire out . You said you’d keep the smoke going” . The hunter agreed with piggy . Jack got angry and there was a fight between him and Piggy. Hack broke one side of Piggy’s specs.
Afterwards, they all shared the hunted meet . Jack first didn’t want to give Piggy claiming that he didn’t hunt with them but Piggy says “neither did Ralph nor Simon”. Ralph share his piece with Piggy.
This chapter is ended with a primitive ceremony. The boys gathered in a circle and start dancing and singing “ Kill the pig …etc

Now this is a plot summary for the main points in this chapter. Now I shall determine the underlying themes of it and some kind of interpretation

[hearty00]

good stuff "Withe Lily" i ve got to thank you indeed for your participation
now let me share with you my examination of the Fourth Chapter indeed.
The title of this chapter is named “ painted faces and long hair” these are starkly primitive sings that the young boys start characterise themselves with as soon as their relationship and rapport with the nature become so tight and close, more importantly when these signs comes as channel that might allow them to survive in the Jungle according to the point of view of “Jack”. Jack and the other boys after all represent a civilised human societies of the white man, now in their new situation the boys are bound to adopt an uncivilised behaviours relate to the early so called “Primitive group” inhabitant of the world . This resemblance can be analysed in two ways, first as a warning from “Golding” foreshadowing that the dramatic technological development in the “civilised societies” and that search for materialistic gain and wealth might lead to the inevitable conflict between civilisations which would lead to the destruction of any cultured foundations.
A second examination may be read as though there are some attitudes in the human race remain instinctive and unequivalent as son as he’d return to the nature he is impelled with motivation to survive by utilizing Force
Henceforth The fourth chapter has a crucial put up within the structure of the story wholly for several reasons. First of all, if we ever care to ask the question what brings the boys in that situation being isolated in the Jungle, this issue is barely answered in this chapter..
Other things this chapter had seems the assertion of Ralph as an undisputable leader of his trip stem from his conflict with Jack about the loss of the opportunity to be rescued, the last thing is the conflict between Jack and Piggy which emphasised the oppression (subjection) on one hand on the other the feebleness (frailty
)

thank you indeed

[White Lily]

the “civilised societies” and that search for materialistic gain and wealth might lead to the inevitable conflict between civilisations which would lead to the destruction of any cultured foundations

so you connect the theme of this chapter mainly with materialism and industrialization and think that they have some relationship with the sophistication of the English societuy ?or what
well if yes ,i agree 'cause the time the novel arouse in which is 1964 , the Engliush society was considered to be the most civilized society and the author is trying to connect the fact that there is materialism in this society even if it is as CIVILIZED as they appear to. some of your phrases gave me inner view to certain things in the novel i didn't pay attention to

well, your analysis is very advance and I would like to thank you for not giving up this forum cause it has many visitors with no participation
thnx again for your commiment and keep it up

[hearty00]

so you connect the theme of this chapter mainly with materialism and industrialization and think that they have some relationship with the sophistication of the English societuy ?or what
well if yes ,i agree 'cause the time the novel arouse in which is 1964 , the Engliush society was considered to be the most civilized society and the author is trying to connect the fact that there is materialism in this society even if it is as CIVILIZED as they appear to. some of your phrases gave me inner view to certain things in the novel i didn't pay attention to

well, your analysis is very advance and I would like to thank you for not giving up this forum cause it has many visitors with no participation
thnx again for your commiment and keep it up

thanks so much for ur concern ,
listen the shortcomings of materialism and industruslisation are in its sharp degrees in our modern times , what's even worst is when the East get thrust on avariously in search for wealth as well. you see know a country used to defend the general interests of a group of countries that shared the very idealogy like the late USSR. now russia mainly chokin for its own personal benefets
and still there are multtitude of instances of countries which accepte to share the cake with the Devil and being the Devil's Advocat as well .
for instance i bitterly watch the conflict between Hamass and Fath and say what the hell those are fighting for , i think twice and say certainly if each of these momevement put aside thier personal interests and start seeking for their true integrity, certainly they will get the trick to rebel against any one whatever his mighty is .
we have got to get a cause to fight under its flag. personnally i see the solution in implementing Islam.

in shed of this brief analysis , let me give a cue to the examination of the next chapter which is "shadows and trees"
for , i see the question that poses itself in our current situation in the search for the characteristic that shapes the persumable leader who rule the crowd , the question is what is the virtue of the leader
for further explaination please check out my points and examination of the next chapter and i stay waiting for your own interpretaion.
The fifth chapter depicts Ralph in a moment of deep thinking which drive him astonished about some vague issue related to man -> (the development of his intellectual awareness) -> Ralph ‘s got a round character.
_the setting of the Throne (the chief’s seat) ->integrity of their state + leader
_ The virtue of leadership ->intellectual adequacy (Ralph admits his inadequacy in this concern) “I can’t think not like Piggy”+ tolerate law “Ralph felt kind of affectionate reverence for the conch” + Planning for the general welfare and respect once word+ courage of self-criticism & constructive criticism.
_ Resolution of the problem which impeaches the integrity of the group by the aid of Piggy who leads them into quite a rational solving of the matter rather than speculation.” I know there isn’t no fear” Piggy paused “Unless” “Unless we get frightened by people” a reasonable assumption that there is not someone behind pushing the little children to fright to in order to achieve his personal welfare ,Hither only Jack who is inclined to such deed. We are going to see if Piggy’s doubts load evidence. However in his pursuit to solve the matter, once again, Jack hindered his quest. This time the violation of rule won’t go without notice; the reaction of Ralph led to reveal the ill-will of Jack, but mostly to a decisive stance expressed by Ralph as follow since Jack’s opinion got an assent by the group
Piggy was so close that Ralph could see the glint of his one glass.
“There’s the fire. Can’t they see?”
“you got to be though now. Make ‘em do what you want”
Ralph answered in the cautious voice of one who rehearses a theorem.
If I blow the conch and they don’t come back; then we shan’t keep the fire going. We’ll be like animals. We’ll never be rescued

[White Lily]

this is a great response for my question , but let me add that the conflict in Palestine is not a materialistic or authority conflict. it has roots and other things but thanks Allah both parties manages to solve it and now we can all see how the Saudi interaction with it and the fruity results. and I absolutly agree with you that Islam is the best solution . to be more precise,its the only solution for all the troubles and the conflicts

now considering chapter 5 , i think you included the most important points . this chapter deals with the real philosophy ana psychology of human beings .from the beginning ,the boys have been developing a mental and psychological fear of the BEAST . there is no beast , not on the island and not in any place else but the point they reach made them need something to be accused as the reason for thier troubles and misbehaviours.
Piggy seems to me the only one who understand the true sense of this BEAST and the human nature . he realized that the beast does'nt exist and there is no such thing except if they consider thier own natures . this is true to a great extent 'cause the boys are becoming wilder and their primitive acts are coming to the surface . the civilized and sopisticated British boys are no longer the same . Now well done Hearty when illustrating the light on the qualities of the good leader . Ralph kind of have it all but the thinking faculty is'nt his thing. he mainly depends on Piggy to think for him despite the image that the writer wanted us to feel about Piggy's poor significance in almost everything . Ralph is a major character and so does Piggy. I think if they survived at the end , this will be just because of Piggy's insight and Ralph's courage

the above illustration of the mantal and psychological depth of Piggy's personality basically- might justify why Ralph wanted him to be always around.

this is all what I can say now , if u have some thing to add
I would be delighted to read it .
thnx

[hearty00]

jolly good, though I have to clarify Sth important about my last point, I didn’t mean that the materialistic greed is behind the conflict between Palestinians solely. The kind of conflicts I disdained is the conflict of interests Mostly, when either “Hamas” or “fath” stick to their own point of view stubbornly and invest all their means & mighty in order to gain the ground or any moralistic value. The problem is that both of them fail to submit themselves to found one integrant cause to fight for it ; instead they fought each other sheepishly . And the results of this “stinginess” is the new image they exported (both of them) to their enemies, which demonstrates the Muslims blood soaks cheaply & nonchalantly not only for the world but also by themselves. That’s why I blame either Fath or Hamas.
Also to be honest if one pay a little heed to his own deed he would blame himself too; for if we perceive our conduct toward this conflict we are not only grossly sterile by our gruesome silence , but according to me I dare say we are more or less sharing our part in this crime . I know you would say I am just derived with my emotions & I am saying anything; though you are going to see logic in my statements if we compare the materialistic deeds in our conducts and the role materialism contributing for the continuity of this conflict. And also if we verify how long we are thrust on materialism and we can’t get rid of our greedy consumption which at the end grant an important fluidity for the damn Zionists to kill our children by our money, unfortunately, by our very hand.
From now on one should depict the defect ness from within himself, in case he would like to get a clue for our shared misery.
Now get back to the analysis of the events of “lord of flies” which is not so far from what we were talking about. You successfully were heedful to the importance of Piggy to conceive a rational background to the problem which engulfs the boys. An by the deep psychological analysis we are shown a range of criterion each one of the boys pursue in order to solve any given matter that bother him and his group. Obviously, Piggy rely on down to earth usages to judge , explain and ultimately respond; whilst Jack utilise is physical strength mostly along with his intelligence in order to achieve a confined interest to be the leader. Between this and that Ralph is most on the time not pensive, spontaneous, muse unlimitedly, and much more to say about the qualities of Ralph which according to me might allow his the stance of a leader. That’s why I am somewhat not much on the opinion saying that Piggy is the CUE of his their group, who is going to solve all the latter by his intelligence ; the unification of the effort of all the boys might save them. But the question right now what it is going to unify the boys to be an integrated force against the problems that face them; unfortunately there is not king Abdullah in that Jungle to intermediate between them in order to rescue them.

[hearty00]

salam alikom again seems the discussion in this thread is dead , i hope i t will be revived , here i am gong to post my comment on the followin chapter the sixth

Ironically, The title “beast from the Air” goes to give authenticity to the story of the “the Monster” that scares the boys, whereas from the beginning of this chapter the narrator (third) has rationally explained the source of the echoes and odd light that pain in the neck the littleuns as well as the begiuins .
the rest of the events would only comes to fortify the irrational belief that a monster dwell in the same jungle where they are.
In order to unravel the mystery of “the monster” which become a real evil threaten the group, this claim amplified with the eye witnesses after the accident occurred to the twins in the mountains when they were guarding the fire; The boys thereafter led an excursion to the place of the accident in search for “the monster”.
While there were conducting to the mountain the dispute between Ralph and the Jack about who deserve to preside over the boys is tightened, for a while Jack was preferred to lead, out of his experience in hunting, afterward Ralph sacrificed himself to fight the presumable Monster to show up his leadership; but again Jack in a conspicuous defiance of the order of his leader, run aloof the decision of Ralph and pursued him. Jack’s boldness took another hazardous direction when he started to emulate the decisions of Ralph and the rest of the group abet him.
This attitude warn of a coming faction that threaten the leader in his position.

[hearty00]

The symbol of the desire to cut off his hair & has toilet as a civilised boy not in a Jungle , might be analysed as his wiliness & yearn to preserve the quality of a cultured or a
schooled boy

Here we are thrust on some reminiscences of Ralph before he is somehow imprisoned in the Jungle with his fellow peers. These thoughts-back also depicted and precisely his relationship with “books” as a symbol and source of knowledge that consoled Ralph unless they uphold not a theme about “Girls”. Whereas he preferred “the Boys’ books” and read them delightfully. This scene was immediately curved into a sudden and vulnerable hunting of a board that Ralph participated in instinctively to caught him; but his effort goes without notice; instead Jack’s ones were acknowledged especially when he (Jack) caught wounded in the operation of hunting. Therefore again the esteem of Ralph as a leader is wounded since he became the mockery of his fellows , whereas they used to pay him all the respect due to a leader; now this reverence & awe converted to Jack.
However, if we try to analyse the personality of Ralph according to this scene (of hunting) we are left impressively amazed by his two-fold attitudes: on one hand he yearns to a civilised and cultured behaviours of the past years ; on the other, he immediately get thrust into vulnerable and harsh attitudes embodied in the operation of hunting he assisted his fellows to be accomplished, more than that he strived to participate in the vocalic rituals and the dance the boys lead whenever they succeed to attain a hunting.
This can only be explained that whatever stand of knowledge and civilisation a human being can reach; still there are some vulnerable attitudes which are instinctively instilled to human race and can float to the surface as soon as he is put into the right place where they can be applicatory suitable (the Jungle), in brief the nature of the atmosphere in which a human being is in roughly involves some vulnerable natured-like attitudes and characterise Man thereafter.
Since then, The big showdown between Jack & Ralph has been verbally expressed, for Jack accused Ralph of cowardice in his trait, on the other hand, Ralph witnessed on the challenge of the Rock of the castle to prove on his braveness. Henceforth only another expedition would judge their courage. The deal which Ralph considered it a “Mad expedition” showed the first time the fright of Jack as soon as he heard an odd sounds, contrarily Ralph ‘d benefit from this occasion and show up his courage in challenging the presumable beast

[White Lily]

Assalmu ALikom
Long time ..no posts.. sorry but for some reasons I wan'snt able to post

any way , I wanted to analyze chapter 6 but brother hearty did a great job and posted it. so I wrote about chapter 7 and it was already posted so plz forgive me for writing about the same chapter and I promise InshaAllah I'll post chapter 8

thnx for keeping this forum a life and I hope others to participate in here . or at least write what do they think of this forum:smailes60:

[White Lily]

All the boys are dirty. This is due to the whole new life and not just because of playing. Their clothes are mostly gone, only tattered pieces remaining to remind them of the past. Golding reflects Ralph’s thoughts “He discovered with a little fall of the heart that these were condition she took as normal that he did not mind” . Ralph is nearly certain that their lifes will no longer be the same . I think even if they are also rescued
Now Ralph can’t stick to his illusion of leadership , the situation is becoming too hard and he’s too lonely.
I just feel that Ralph really feeled trapped and the sea is no longer a source of joy as the very beginning of the novel. Golding expressed this meaning greatly in his novel “Faced by the brute obtuseness of the ocean , the miles of division , one was clamped down , one was helped ,one was condemned ”
Simon remains the whisper of hope in Ralph’s ears . he stays calm and believing that someday they will be rescued . they will be found sooner or later . he says to Ralph”you’ll get back to where you come from ” but Ralph says “it’s too big” he means obviously the ocean as if there is a long long time before they will be rescued.
The boys are not anymore innocent and nice. At some point in this chapter, their lust for blood came to the surface .even Ralph wanted to kill the pig .. or to kill whatever
I think here Golding believe that man is sinful by nature . It’s like he really carries the original sin
Ralph wakes up for a while from the savage dance and was concerned ‘cause they took soo long and Piggy might be scared . Simon goes to tell Piggy
Ralph then tells Jack they are foolish to look for the beast after dark:smailes105:
Jack goes looking for the beast as Ralph did in chapter 6 . Ralph still fight the idea of the existence of the beast
Finally , he sees the parachutist moving . his imagination describes it as an ape – like beast and he just
Runs a way

[hearty00]

Assalmu ALikom
Long time ..no posts.. sorry but for some reasons I wan'snt able to post

any way , I wanted to analyze chapter 6 but brother hearty did a great job and posted it. so I wrote about chapter 7 and it was already posted so plz forgive me for writing about the same chapter and I promise InshaAllah I'll post chapter 8

thnx for keeping this forum a life and I hope others to participate in here . or at least write what do they think of this forum:smailes60:


thank you sister for your post , i was absent recently too.

sister i would like you to post your own comment even if i did it before you,because i might miss some points , and you can remind me therefore. after all i am only sayying a sheer subjective view so you might has a reverse point , that's how the disccusion goes up to my knowledge .so i don't think if you post on the same chapter you are going to repet yourself , indeed i sure it would enrich our disccusion.
now let me read your analyse of the chapter eight, and thanks indeed
salam for now.

[hearty00]

The boys are dipped in a perplexing impasse of the monster’s threat, for it not only menaces their living but also it hinders the only way they could afford to be rescued which is the kindle of the fire.
This though situation burdened the shoulders of Ralph as he is the leader who must solve this tangle; instead he hesitated even to hold up a meeting in order to decide and let this missionary for Jack who sees the solutions in the hunters as even.
After that Jack treacherously tried a revolt against his chief and called for a re-election for a new chief, to his dismay Jack didn’t get the approval of any of “the electors”.
Up till now, the departure of Jack changed the tensely atmosphere among the boys to become more lax and secure. Especially for Piggy who is relieved by the departure of Jack and sensed liberty at least , more than that he became more sociable than before.
However, Some biguns decided to steal off from their leader after these new changes. So there stand can only be a coward one, for they couldn’t express their opinion bravely when Jack called for an extraordinary election of a new chief; they have chosen to go off with their own instead.
The result of this is a crack in their original group into two opposite small groups, and two chiefs for two groups in one Island. Certainly, The principles of the groups would contrast evidently and each one of them would have its own characteristics accordingly. If the search for the recovery from the savageness of the isolated Island through the kindle of the fire (which represents a salient sign of civilisation), the appeal to the conch to order the dialogue and respect the freedom of each one of the individuals, and the contentment with fruits as a source for their nourishments, are the main characteristics of Ralph’s group , what are the features of Jack’s policy would be like??
"We'll hunt. I'm going to be chief."
They nodded, and the crisis passed easily.
"And another thing. We shan't dream so much down here. This is near the end of the
island."
But now I'm going to get more of
the biguns away from the conch and all that
such decisions were the first commends Jack had took individually with the passive agreement of the rest of the biguis who had joined him up till now. He made the practice of hunting as the main target for them and as he is going to lead the hunting he nominated himself their leader easily. Jack took into his account to bring to his group some more biguns from Ralph’s one, as an intrigue to weaken Ralph to surrender to his mighty indeed.
Afterward, William Golding depicted precisely the operation of the hunting Jack led and succeed to fulfilled it , this certainly would drag a moralistic lading to accomplish his other aims. However still Jack and his group in need for” the Fire” , for that Jack instead to surrender to a mutual negotiation with Ralph , he cooked a plan to foray into their land & steal the Fire. Also he schemed to left some of the meat as a diabolic plan to entice the other BIGUNS into his dominion.
"This head is for the beast. It's a gift." Amazingly Jack’s generosity would go far to include the Monster in his plan in order to beware of the evil this monster is likely to evoke. By this William Golding shed light on an important issue which is still existing in most civilisations “the issue is the source of RITUALS” which is derived from the fright from the unseen & their mysterious supernatural powers; that lead Man to sacrifice immolations in order to achieve a certain closeness, and tries to gain approval from them. After this ritual of obedience presented by Jack and his assistance they fled to allow the monster take his Gift; yet Simon decided to remain and by that he had the first direct contact with “the monster” who is from now on being called “The Lord OF Flies” because he is surrounded by countless flies.
On the other side, Ralph and Piggy pondered on the troubles betiding them to found out a solution of the shrinkage of their numbers ;yet the immensity of their duties. The kindle of the Fire is considered the utmost of them

[tota20]

hi evrybody
ican`t find this novel can u help me
i` ll try to read with u
it`s good idea

[hearty00]

HI again ,
well, here you are the link to download the novel with one sound tract and some pictures
hope you'll all like it
http://rapidshare.com/files/12650076/LordOfTheFlies.rar

plz don't be late for the discussion

salam alikom , welcome to our discusion, feel free to take part in , here is a soft copy of the LordOfFlies , this copy is found by Sister White lily

[White Lily]

All the boys are certain that there is a beast on the island including Ralph . When they kill the pig and give it’s head to the beast with the dance and the movements they did, this reminded mne with the rituals of the primitive people . As fear gets Ralph along with the other boys , they all lost what remained in their minds about the concept that is called civilization . the fire they wanted to have at the beginning is not suppose to be lit at this stage ‘cause the beast may see it and attack them . this is the second symbol they lost after the conch which is called now (blob).
Jack accuses Ralph of being week just like piggy and he is not a prefect leader . when Jack again loses the boys vote on the leadership , he begins to cry . we see Jack’s desire for power side by side with his immaturity and his inability to understand human relationships. His desire to force himself on the others as a leader and his childness are placed together several times in the story. In doing this, Golding may be hinting that those who seek power in this way are often immature and without understanding of the human situation.
Jack decides to leave the tripe . This pleased Piggy . Simon continues the discussion about the beast saying that he’s up to climb the mountain to see whether there is a beast or not . For Jack , he got the choir with him and when Golding says “their voices had been the songs of angels”, he convinces us that they become devils. Jack intended to have the boys with him against Ralph so that he can manipulate them. He suggests an offer to the beast which will make him able to manipulate the beast too. They put the pig’s head on a sharpened stick and give it to the beast. Golding comments ”the silence accepted the gift”
Simon have a conversatiuon with the head which is called LORD OF THE FLIES
LOTF says to him “you knew , I’m part of you, close close close ”
Simon realizes that evil doesn’t exisat outside human nature. It is inside it . they LOTF says”we shall do you ”and he mentioned the names of the boys including Ralph and Piggy who are supposed to be his friends. Simon runs toward the boys to tell them.. there is no beast, it’s only a parachutist and the real beast is them.

[White Lily]

Now I think that this conversation with LORD OF THE FLIES is the most important thing in the whole novel. The massage is transferred within these few lines . it’s like Shakespeare’s soliloques but the mirror of Simon's thoughts was the LORD OF THE FLIES
Carrying the name of the title should be of a great importance
and I also agree with u that we should post every thing we write
to make some kind of discussion and not just a summary
[for what we read . so why don't we stop for a while to discuss the themes carried in
this short , significant conversation sheding the light to our own views]
so what do you think

[hearty00]

yeah , first of all i am sorry for the delay
second , i agree the conversation of the Lord of Flies with Simon carries a multitude of signification in the whole lookout of this Story.
i think the themes posed in this particular chapter may be enumerated as follow : RITUALs embodied in the act of Jack when he left the head of the beast for the monster
as a sacrifice , William Golding by this is approached the causes or the source of the start of rituals in the human being's societies , namely the fright from the unknow forces and the believe of the existence of
mysterious forces that control man and do evil in case a certain compromise haven't been reached.
also we have to consider the significans of the choice of Simon by William to converse with "Lord of Flies", i guess this name (Simon) shed religious connotations , for it refers to Simon the Canaanite First century a.d.
In the New Testament, one of the 12 Apostles. Although nothing certain is known of his life, he is thought to have been a member of the Zealots.

so the question now why William deciedely had chosen Simon to lead this conversation with Lord of Flies?

[White Lily]

so the question now why William deciedely had chosen Simon to lead this conversation with Lord of Flies?

Well, Golding seems a religious person , in his own definition of religion.

the clues strart when he mentioned many things about the original sin and that man's
evil is inherited . the childs are as evil as s cause they are born sinful
Simon comes as the symbol of religion so I think Golding believes that the salvation and
the well being will be only due to religioun .I'm now convinced that he meant to say " no matter how much civilized you are , still you are savage and primitive. evil is inside you no matter how hard you try to hide it with sophistication
Religion can prevent you from and annoying others. and doing all the shamful acts commited by those kids. As the conversation reveals the author's thoughts , Simon is the only one who is untill now not convinced that there is a beast on the island
even Ralph believed it so Simon will be the only hope .that is to say : religion will be the only hope. now the question is : why Ralph didn't has the got to look for the truth and why Golding separated between Religion, intellect and Civilization.Relegion as Simon , Ralph as the civilized people and Piggy the Intellectual people

[hearty00]

I would like to stay more analysing the Theme of Religion in this chapter , in order to understand the true inclination of Golding in using this Theme.
I guess William Golding ’s attempt is to pursue all factors and motivation which stay behind the emergence of a society, a cultural context , or a civilisation whether it has got the criteria of development or not it is still may be called a civilisation, since there are other factors more importantly necessary than the intellectual advancement, and Religion and Rituals are one of these criterion which underlying the make of a Civilisation.
Since then, as I said Golding’ s attempt is to discover the source of any of the constituents of his newly established social context, and he put forward all the ingredients go with establishment of the religious theme in his chosen social context. Namely Lord of Flies as a GOD has chosen Simon as a PROPHET to dispatch his message or religion. Thus Religion has been instituted in their so called society, and still William has instilled his own interpretation of process of religion; however what it is amazingly eye-catching in his process is the Social group where he had chosen Religion to be first emerge. Golding didn’t pick Jack’s Group randomly, he (Golding) had introduced before this an act related to religion when Jack had sacrificed the Head of Pig he had hunted. The question now what are the characterises Jack’s Group possess let them more approachable than Ralph’s group to religion.
I guess the main characteristic which distinguishes Ralph ‘group and Jack ‘ group do not possess is the rational pursuit to unravel any ambiguous process. Namely Piggy who represents its manifestation with his specks necessary to kindle the fire their only way to be rescued.
Whereas Jack’ group take into their account “Hunting” as the acme of their existence and survival in the isolated Island.
By this we can understand that Golding has intentionally instilled Religion in Jack ‘ group rather than Ralph for it is the appropriate environment where such a theme can grow in the absence of a intellectual figure like Piggy

[hearty00]

my question for you , do you think William Golding is attaking religion , or not

[White Lily]

Well if you agreed that Simon represents religion, then we can’t say at all that Golding was anti religion. He chose Simon as the source of hope and faith, the source of reason that one day they’ll be rescued. Besides he’s the only one who understood the reality of the beast and the evil that is inside the boys. He said it is us, it is not on the island. On the contrary , I do believe that Golding wanted to tell us that because people are not as religious as they used to be, they have all these troubles and evil acts. As you might read in the following chapter, Simon will die and Ralph will start suspecting that they will be rescued ever after that moment. The other boys started chasing him and he faces the danger of survival. All these ats are shown explicitly after Simon’s . This can lead us to one way and one single idea , religion will always be the good way for people to survive and manage their life’s in an appropriate way. With the of religion, all the obstacles and the evil side of the humans will be reflected on all of their acts since the man inherits the original sin since birth. And this is another Christian concept which leads us once more to the fact that Golding was a religious man who aims to criticize the corruption of humans due to their escape from religion.
This is my point of view, now what about yours? Do you think that Golding was attacking religion or he himself is a religious person?

[hearty00]

I guess Golding in this story and principally in the late chapters is more concerned to develop the notion of religion more extensively , for that he tried to introduced the basic elements which form this concept, I think that Lord of Flies, the head of the Pig that Jack scarified for the Monster, the Fear from the monster, and Simon (as the mediator between the unseen and the world of the Guys)
are basically the fundamentals which constitute the notion of religion. All these elements enters in relationship with each other namely the fear from the Unknown lead to ritually sacrifices which represents a statement of the existence of another “deity” more powerful and erudite, these later characteristics are precisely the role Lord of Flies has exerted and Simon’s role come as important as he would represent the connector between two worlds; this is exactly the role a Messenger can perform. So the existence of Simon in the story is to concretely establish the notion of religion when the Lord of Flies had chosen to converse with (or rather to convey his message); yet we should not forget that there are essential elements which Golding paved throughout the general build up of the story .that’s why we can not say that Simon exclusively represents the concept Golding has picked to refer to religion.
to respond your former quest about my opinion whether Golding is an anti religious or not, I would rather say that his story represent an acknowledgement that religion is among the basic elements in the formation of a civilisation , though I do not accept the prototypes he had chosen i.e. the rituals, and in particular the nature of Lord of Flies. Who is a soldier come by a parachute from the war taking place in the other world, once he is there in the Island he observed closely the conducts of the Guys and their impulse of the existence of a monster , thus he employed this weak point and start to take advantages and claim his authority and knowledge over them. The Guys on the other hand believed that there exist a monster and should treat him as due or kill him , till the end Jack had scarified the Head of the Pig in order to cohabit with him peacefully. I think by bringing this soldier and nominating him as the Lord of Flies implies that there is not a deity beside Man, and any strong and intelligent can perform this role, and this contradict the nature of God who is unperceivable by our observable acuity, according to our believe indeed.

[White Lily]

Assalamu Alikom
I know m tooooooooooooooo late posting but what can I say.. mid term exams


anyway, i totally agree with you on the last point . Golding wanted to reveal the importance of religion in keeping the civilization up
it is one of the most important componants to him. but the religion itself in which he's talking about is vague.basically they are considered christians , but the rituals are vulgar and irreligious. In our great religion, Islam, we know that it's not a mask to wear where ever we go. rather , our religioun is deeply rooted in our hearts and minds . any experiance we face, even losing civilization and shelter like those kids on the island, we'll keep having faith and the good thing is that ,we'll realize what ever happens. it is ment to be. ..
now, do you think it is time to move to the next chapters or shall we discuss more

[hearty00]

ok i am so irritated, because this the second time i have to replay to your message , i don't know what goes on , i just have finish writting that i'd lost everything , so i have to rewrite everything again .
anyway i m afraid if i am being bothering you with this silly note .
hopefully life has returened to this spot and we can finish analysing this story.
so totally agree on your point to go on discussion the other chapter, pray we would finish this story inshallah because it'd took a long time.
actually, i have read the next chapter hastily and i guess that the death of Simon is the main event in it, along with the confrontation of Ralph and Jack's group in way that they were likely to reach a compromise , but the death of Simon has incurred suddenly.
here i guess some question should be posed in order to maintain a comprehensive analysis of the story.
i guess the question might be qulassified as follow (and you may add questions of yours as well)
first of all what it is the relationship of this chapter with the late on , and of course with the general build up of the story?
what are the impacts the death of Simon would maintain? either on the group of boyz? or the message Golding is bound to convey?
is it (i mean the death of Simon) a mere accidental death (by mistake)
or it is an intend crime?
if this to be true, who is going to apply laws within the mess resulting from the conflict of interest between Jack and Ralph?
is this (death or crime) giong to lead to other crimes

i guess these are some staggred question to further an anlysis for this chapter? in wait for your comments i wish you good luck with the exams and wish me good luck cause i am engulfed with the research paper and exams
salaams for now ,

[Quiet Storm]

Hi everybody
In fact I was surfing the nice topics of this forum when my eyes came upon this nice topic.
In fact it is a great idea, and hope that you keep on, belive me it has a great effect on participants who share others with their ideas...
I'd like to share you your discussions, but if you allow me, I may suggest somethings:
I think you can make it more free and creative if you choose simpler topics to discuss other than a novel, I belive not all the participants may be able to buy or read the novel or some chapters...
You may try to choose some poems, Lyrics, essays for instance...something that doesn't take much time to discuss
open discussion is good if you allow anyone who would like to choose a topic for a period of time as you mentioned before in the first page......this would be great...
the simpler, the easier; the more creative I believe...

Best wishes,

[hearty00]

thank you very much friend. we will act on your advice inshallah. i would like also to keep analysing in this thread till we finish the story, hopfully we had progressed so far
and now ther are only two or three chapters left.
i appreciate your idea to discuss short stories and lyrics.
i am willing to contribute in such work wherever you would like just start it in other thread
salaams .

[White Lily]

you are mostly welcome Quiet Storm in this thread. I'm glad that it motivates others to
participate
well, I think the idea of discussing short works is very constructive. It will surely motivate more to participate so, well done for it. We started with the longest and the most difficult , so it won't harm anyone to try all geners of literary works

Again welcome among us

[White Lily]

I agree with you that Simon's death is the most imporant event so I'm not going to write the summary. Instead I'm posting my responds for your questions that reflect deep insight
For the first question, I believe the most important and real action is held here. The
whole novel is illustrating means of survival, savagery, trying to kill the pig, to trace the beast, and finally KILLING the pig. These acts are hints to the real crime they will commit which is murdering Simon. The most important themes of the novel are civilization, law and order which are all interchangeable with religion. Simon who represents religion is murdered and so their lives will get worse and things will absolutlely go harder and more severe. The build up of thte story depend on the fact tha there are enlightened people within the punh (Simon and Piggy) and we might say Ralph. Simon’s murder will be the turning point that takes the noval and the rest of the actions toward the denouement.

[White Lily]

Well, for the second question, the impacts are sort of included within the first answer. Furthermore , the boys will lose the got and the initiative to survive and to speak out loud what really bothers them up. Ralph will be like the plane the hae lost one engine. Sadly to say this, but when I read the rest of the novel I have discovered that he will lose the second engine or wing if we can say. Hope and faith to be rescued one day is echoed to dead. Simon once said to Ralph “what else can we do” and in another place “we’ll be rescued”. He was sooooo certain , so sure and sooo giving, but this sense and this hope disappears for ever. Een nature sympathizes with the death of Simon when his blood is mixed with the ocean and the it becomes very rough and waged.

For the massage that Golding wanted to convey: I believe that Simon death contributes to the overall meaning and the total massage . you probably read the rest of the novel and realized that all the mess and destruction that took place(will takew place if u still didn’t read the final chapters yet) would not have happened in the first place if : order was there, sense was there, faith was there, i.e. Simon was there. I also think that Golding wants to convey that people are responsible for their own destruction and this leads us to the next question… I Do believe that this was a crime, and not a mere accidental death. I don’t believe of the original sin but I am sure that they had the choice. People can make up their own minds and can control themselves when they are really scared . If they pulled up together and stick to the welfare of he whole, that wouldn’t have happened. On the other hand , I think that this crime is not applied to all of them in the samew degree, rather, it varies,. I think the main cause of it is Jack and Roger with their stupid evil rituals that made even Ralph and Piggy blinded of seeing . I really do hatte to think that both of them are involved in such a crime. They are victims of the lack of sense and lack of every think. So I might say , they were like of psychic dominated with the sense that they are responsible for some how. Not sure if I’m making myself clear(Plz post ur comment on this exact question coz’ it’s so contraversing )

Ok, for the other question, no one will apply law from now on . Mess will surely get worse. I think Ralph will try his best but.. : ( no one will respod

Well, yup , this will certainly lead to other crimes (this is my guessing b4 reading he rest of the novel), coz’ as it is said, who kills once , kills twice. Who kills once, keeps it up.. coldly. The fist time is the most difficult one,(like when they treid to hunt the pig
at the first two chapters), but later it ill be sooooooooooooooooooo destructive.

Thanks for your wishings and I hope the best for you in your exams too. may Allah help us all . Salam

[k0k02000]

GOOD GOOD GOOD

[White Lily]

Salamu Alikom everybody

I'm not posting any response until I finish my final exams in the sixth of june
sooo sorry for that
plz wish me luck
Salam

[badguy4you]

goooooooooooood start

[White Lily]

Assalamu Alikom

Finally I have finished my examinations and back to this thread

We're about to finish this novel (Lord of the Flies), so for anyone who have suggestions about what to discuss plz do suggest and we'll vote for a new literary work

All the best Wishes for everybody evreywhere and anytime
:smailes60:

[hearty00]

Thank you Withe Lily for joining us again.
expect my participation in this thread soon inshallah, now i write both the summury plot , and the analytical depth in the chapter "shell and Glassess" .. therefore there must be a point to discuss in the light of summuring and analysing this chapter.
i hope you will do well in your exams Allah willing.

wasalam
hearty00

[White Lily]

Ralph escapes to the jungle and he have to remain constantly alert . At first , he tries to convince himself that the boys don’t want to harm him. On the other hand, he knew these painted savages would go further and further. They killed Simon and Piggy and now it is his turn
Besides, in this chapter , Ralph faces Lord of the Flies but it doesn’t talk to him as it did with Piggy. Ralph realizes its evil “a sick fearand rage swept him” . He destroys the skull and take the stick which it was mounted on

Adding to his loneliness, Ralph discovers that Sam ‘en Eric joined the hunters to keep Ralph away from the castle rock and to hunt him down
When Eric says to him “Listen, Ralph. Never mind what sense, that’s gone is”. I think this summarizes the whole plot and the whole theme of both this chapter and the novel in general. “They will do you” is equated with death. Indeed all the sense in the world is gone. Ralph is the only one who bothers to think and this led him to troubles.
Ralph gets the news that Roger had sharpened a stick from both ends and he could not imagine the horror Roger is intending to carry against him. For me I connect it with the identical stick in which LOTF was mounted to and this means they are going to kill him and hang him as the PIG

The twin betrays his place and his journey starts toward death.
He now has only two choices and both of them are horrible
EITHER TO KILL OR TO BE KILLED

I think this is enough for today ‘coz the electricity is about to turn off
I’ll complete soon in sha Allah

[hearty00]

this is more than enough. Actually i have not read the last chapter yet. but i promise you to carry on as soon as possible.

from your last comment, i percieve that the ending of the story seems gloomy and terribly unfair for the part of Ralph. if i understand well what have you jusr written, the end of Ralph is a confrontation with lord of Flies and sunsquently, he will die.

if this will be the end of Ralph who represents all good in man. more precisely a man that respect man and have faith in law in oder to construst civilisation. henceforth we can infer that William Golding outlook of the world is indeed gloomy.

in this comment i want to relate the event of this story along the current issues of today, namely the event in middle east. for that i want to pose the following question.
throughout the event of this story "Lord of Flies" Ralph 's group is defined as being a cultured and civilisated band who use rational thinking and wisdom in order to have clue for the the problems they are confronting. on the other hand. Jack is rather considered as a mob party who do not care for laws and fight for his personal benefits.
now if we committe ourselves to these difinitions being labled to Ralph and Jack and at the same time trying to draw a parallel between these difinitions , namely civilized party represent by Ralph, and Mob party represented by Jack. and the two factions in plestine. namely Hamas and Fath .
what would you consider a mob party , is it Hamas or Fatah??

thank you for your time.

[White Lily]

I didn't write the whole summary of the last chapter as I said so it doean't end with the confrontation with lord of the flies . I'm not messing the rest of the novel up by saying what will happen to ralph. I think you'd better read all of it first coz it's really so...... as it is the last chaper.
well, I agree with you totaly that the two opposite forces represented by Ralph and Jack can be considered somehow a representation of what is going on here in the Arab world(I like to use this term more than the middle East which is basically named by the British Occupation ). But it is really hard to apply on the two parties of Hamas and Fath. you know media is'nt fair all the times and sometimes I feel that this X party is wrong and it represent all the choas in Palestine and other times I feel that the Y party is the same. there is no doubt that each party has good people who represent order and who want things to move in Palestine topward a bitter and brighter future. Sorry if I'm not making my self clear but if you have any quesions about this issue or more precise viewpoints plz say it and I would be very delighted to discuss it

have a nice day

[hearty00]

:smailes21: your comments makes me want to read this story more than any time before. because i rely on your late summary to make up the idea of my last post. so i cancel any comment which does not fit to the event of the story. i had speculated that the confrontation of Rqlph with the so colled Lord of Flies had ended with dead of Ralph. but seems there is another end beyond my speculations.
anyhow; ill to finish this story .
i have attempted to draw a parallel between the opposition between Ralph and Jack groups; and the opposition going on now between Hamas and Fath. actually i appreciate your comment and i feel it is not worthy to select or rather to electe one party as being innocent and the other is guilty. more often than not, i feel that this inclination to choose and drop the other is bound make things worse rather than prosper anything.
however, i want you rather to understand my target by bringing such comparison.
i came to this analogy because ei feel that the general theme in Lord of Flies is Civilization vs. savegery

i take it that William Golding has utilized both Ralph and Jack in order to examplify or embody his theme.it is obvious the inclination of Ralph to appear as a civilized boy and maintain all the necessary element that contribute in the make of civilization, namely, The Fire, the frindship with Piggy, the Conch (which represents the freedom of speech and consevation of Law), etc...
on the other hand Jack is born to quietly owns the reverse qualities. he would opt for hunting a mode of life, and if there is something he is good to perform is to act against the norm of any existing law.
henceforth, both Jack and Ralph groups' represent an trial of make a civilisation.no matter what is the core or the philosophy of making it. at the end a regim would be construst.
i guess this is a natural consequence of any late civilization.
i take it that this story discuess the element that intervene to make a given civilization . up till now we have that a leader who is features as being wiser that respect law and do his best in order to apply whears the personal interest of someone. for that he must be courageous and also care the general benefit of everybody in his group. if this is not enough, a spiritual monitor has to support him in his quest. this quest will not more fair than an attempt to found a civilization. (yet i think that Golding has not pursue a typical attitude in choosing Piggy as the spiritual monitor of Ralph, because Ralph is rather bound to exert the role of rational supporter more that being a spiritual one) . moreover Jack is power which is an obstacal rather than being a supporter, but he has successed to a group of his own and defy Ralph. i guess that the virtue of Jack in the overall make up of the quest of setting a civilization has also a preciouse place in the sense that if Jack had utilized his force along with the rational virtue Piggy is filling, the foundation of civilization would easily be achieved.... however what we are witnessing is quiet the opposite (up to the chapte 12)
i guess this idea of the story. there is an a bsence of unity because each individual actully complement the other to make a force against unknown forces.
i m contended if this would be the case in the Arabe World
(thank you for correcting this awful mistake by the way) the florishing of Arabe civilization,would be enlightned indeed . don't you see that.

[White Lily]

each individual actully complement the other to make a force against unknown forces.


This actually summarizes a theme I wanted to post but I was lost in words. thnx for
helping me figure it out:smailes43:
I believe that u r perfectly right coz on the one hand we have Piiggy , Ralph, and Simon . each represent intellect, authority, and religion. and they complement each other. we notice that ralph's position was very strong in the first chapters even though they were all scared to death. He had the conch and Piggy -despite the fact that he was mocked all the time- was able to raise his voice to tell the boys to handle the conch to ralph or to SHUT UP coz they don't have the conch. and Simon always was able to move and to go to his secret shelter and he was able to communicate with both sides. BUT when Piggy the intellectual and Simon the religious died, Ralph lost the power to move on. He wanted to carry on but it was really hard for him coz he needed both Religion to make spirits calmer and intellect to figure away out of all the mess . there is a quotation where Ralph remembers and misses a true frined called PIggy . I'm not writing it down and I'm sure u'll figure it out. this really affected me coz Ralph is sooo despert and Piggy is soo dead


On the otehr hand , we have Jack, Roger, Maurice and to some extent Sam and Eric. those boys also complement each other .each one represnet an aspect of evil. Jack is the leader and Roger is the evil power who have the initiative to kill, strike and mock otehrs .besides , Sam and Eric in the end reveal Ralph's place and this collaboration helped evil people to strik. Jack was really evil from the very beginning but he was not able to object Ralph's position and power. he needed those others to comlement. and If Roger had not got the support from the rest of the hunters , he wouldn't have been able to Kill Piggy and do the other awfel stuff.

To sum up this point , I intented to say that the power of good people needs support to take its position as the power of law, order , civilization , intellect etc . the same for the power of evil that is not able to flourish as long as the power of good doesn't allow them to gather.this can be applied to the Muslims situation nowaday beside many local issues in each country of the whole world


As we are reaching to the end of the novel , I think we are more able to analyzie the themes, conflict , motives and many other small points that might not be discussed in other websites. As the above characters are complementary, this discussion is complementary and here we are buildin on each other's analysis, and this is really great

KEEP it UP and
have a nice day

[hearty00]

I am also fascinated with the level of discussion we have reached, especially; your last comment is perfect masallah.

I take it we have to carry out this job for our benefit and also for welfare of our Islamic and Arab civilization that we represent. Because when someone is about to give his/her opinion about a given situation, certainly, his own believes and cultural specificity intervene in the process of completing an originative ideas.
I feel that I a lot of the ideas we form is almost always universal. That is, there are not particular for one group but it is almost share by a wide group of human race.
i guess a fair intellectual observation of our situation nowadays will discover that fate of human race is almost the same.

Nowadays, such voices are shutting down unfortunately.
I hope we would reason this matter enough and know that each individual is responsible to find the truth. For that one has just to believe of his own capacity. That was some of the lessons I ve learned from this discussion with you.
As i promised you i have finished reading the last chapter.
The end of the story was perfectly well as i thought. However, there are still some questions that stagger in my minds and i want you help me find out what it means.
The encounter of Ralph with that navy officer, Is he the same officier that had fell from the sky with parachute as we have seen in the earlier chapter, and was thought to be the Lord of Flies. ??
Besides, I think we have finished with this story and we have to choose another for our coming discussions. Finally I still have got some analyses of some chapters that I didn’t discuss with you. I will post them and finish inshallah. From we have to think about the next story.

Wish you success in your life as you have succeeded to finish this long story.
:smailes21:

[White Lily]

I agree with you that the Islamic perspective of us is very important and this gives me and idea of something: In Islam, the ruler is supposed to be a man of religion and in the same time he needs intellect and the good behavior. as we can see all in one person. The truely Khalifa is wise, civilized and is characterized with all the good characteristics including the power of mind were as in this novel Golding separates these aspects to three different characters . Ralph, Piggy, and Simon

this separation is affected by the western culture or the irrelegious culture. those people always separates the church and science. they separate religion and civilization
but the true Muslims realizes that Islam means the best civilization ever. and religion oes not contradict with science nor intellect.

well, the navy officer is not the same Parachiutist who was considered to be the beast
In that chapter (Beast from Air) the Parachutist was dead. he fell from a plan in the war that was happening in the grown up world. that parachutist represent the correption of the outside world. at that chapter I thought of it as if Golding is giving us -readers-a sign that they will never be rescued as the grown ups world is busy with his own corruption and savagery

for the navy officer, he's a British officer so I believe he represent the British civilization
. As every body notices that in all the English works , English people believe of their superiority. and here Golding is not an exception. ralph was about to be killed when he was rescued by that BRITICH navy officer as if he's telling us that the restoration of law and order will be accomplished by the Britich people.and I take this as a source of irony coz this appearance happened after all the desturction on the island, after Simon' s death, after Piggy's death and after Ralph's ever lasting shock of human nature

the boys lost their innocence and they burned the forest that once had been a very beautiful place and this is also another source of irony. they wanted to make fire and smoke to get rescued at the bigging and now that are being rescued because of fire
there is no doubt that the fire that Ralph suggested differs from the fire that rescued them!!!

I'm really glad as u want to go on with this discussion
I think we should first specify the genre of literature we are going to deal with later
is it a short story , a novel , a play, a poem or what
is it old or moderen
I guess we have to agree on such things to specify one interesting liretary work in order to
:smailes103: be as successful as this great discussion

Finally congratulation on ur graduation and I hope u the best In sha Allah

[White Lily]

hello

anybody hereeeeeeee


any suggestions



:smailes108:

[hearty00]

asalam white lily

i ve already proposed the poem i posed searching for answers (http://www.bramjnet.com/vb3/showthread.php?t=352402)

if you agree i will start my analysis immediately

[White Lily]

sorry ,I was busy lately and I couldn't checked anything but the Literary Discussion link


any way, the lyric is great and surely we can start it right away

I'll start writing soon in sha Allah

as it is ur lyric, plz post it here again so that we can start

thnx for introducing such a nice l;yric about Palestine
:smailes21:

[hearty00]

salam white lily so long , we have not seen you often recently i hope khair inshallah. actually, the lyrics you have seen are not my lyrics there are of some artist in britain , they made a whole album named Palestine from among the tracks i like are "jenin" and other awesome lyrics inshallah we will discuss them one by one , i hope others will join the discussion with us.

wasalam
ps: i see you are on right this the first we are both online at the same time. khair inshallah

[White Lily]

assalamu alikom
I am sooo delighted that there are people who still care about Palestine .coz this is a harsh time and it seems that people just forgot everything about our issue
I'm looking forward reading Jenin and the other lyrics which hopefully we'll be discussing one after another

hope u r just fine and enjoying ur holiday
have a nice day

[hearty00]

salam white lily
you don't know how much some people are still caring about the issue of our ummah that i why i invite you to the other forum, to tell you the truth i ve never felt the anguish and suffering of our brothers and sisters are enduring if i didn't meet some brother in that forum

inshallah we will se a free paletine

[White Lily]

This is the first part of the lyric Searching for Answers

Presented by : Brother Hearty00

[I know you're waiting for me to come home again, (repeats)
But I am searching for an answer, (repeats)
I am a million miles away now, (repeats)



http://www.21za.com/pic/decoration001_files/14.gif


I am a wondering stranger lost and all alone, (repeats)
I am a million away now, (repeats)


http://www.21za.com/pic/decoration001_files/14.gif

I've got this vivid dream, of living in Filisteen,
Rivers are clean, and Children can swim in streams
And Women can live in peace,
Peace of mind, that when her kid leaves her sight,
He'll return in one peice,
And leaves grow on trees
And seeds grow to be,
Anyting from Scholar to Doctor,
Nothing stopping them prosper,
No War, No more Anarachy!
Can it be, its a just a dream,
Or is this dream a distant reality?

[White Lily]

At the very beginning. I thought “searching for answers!”. What kind of answers and for which questions. I thought I‘ll find many
questions in the lyric.
The first two lines give us the identity of the speaker and the manner of the lyric by using the first person narrator (I). I presume that the (HOME) he is talking about is Filisteen. But I don’t get it… why he is seeking the answers outside the boundaries of the questions. i.e. Outside Palestine “he is a million miles a way” this distance made him feel like a stranger
The first stanza identifies the first question in lines (16-17
Can it be is it just a dream?
or a distant reality?

This stanza actually describes this dream vividly … where rivers are clean and children can swim in streams and women can live in peace of mind and leaves grow on trees and seeds prosper with no wars. I believe these seeds are metaphor stand for children – the coming generation of Palestinian Children because these seeds will grow to be anything from scholars to doctors
For the answer of this question, I think it is not a one-way answer, it is both-ways because we have this dream, we are all dreaming of free Palestine and in the same time we believe that this is a distant reality and it might not be as far as it appears.
After all, dreams shall come true
and
Today’s dream is tomorrow’s reality

[hearty00]

thank you very much that your comments comes on this fantabulous manner. i am really thankful dear White Lily

here we go before i will finish reading your post let me post my analyse of the poem
thank you pretty much white lily.

[hearty00]

this is a whole essay i manage to write i hope you will enjoy reading and of course i will be waiting your interesting comments

The refrain of this song echoes a call of strangers (outlandish from the true belief) who yearn to get back to their mother town (Faith). The callers give an idea of how far there are from that place and they justify their distantness by the burden to search for some Answers before they manage to get back.
In individual basis, there are tortured by this separation (feeling of loneliness, and loss); though they still keep a spiritual contact with that place (Faith) and being far off (the form of the speech is as if the address someone dare to them).

The return to that place is what might end the anguish of the speaker that is why the return is so important for them to balance their distorted estate.

What lingers them to realize this ambition is a necessary attempt to answer some staggering questions!

What kind of questions they strive to answer before they manage to return?

In regard to their actual state, which is characterized by instability and inability of proper action and judgment; they undertake their quest to recuperate a lost identity and faith which is symbolically distant a million miles away.

The first verse converses the reality of philistine with a dream of a peaceful life.
The dream of a peaceful life and nature, which is immediately interrupted by a nightmare of a woman that loses her child.
Still, the speaker could not resist the sugariness of the dream so he envisions the children have their natural right to grow and have an outstanding career.
Actually, this vision is an irony in the sense that natural right of child to live a peaceful life in philistine had become not just dream but also a distance reality to achieve.

The next verse will also provide a comparison between two lives and bring the similarities of interests that could happen between a Youngman who lives in the west and the other in Philistine.
The man (in the west) considers himself sharing the pain that Palestinians’ survive also.
Moreover, he cannot protest against injustice without going against the norms of the country receiving him. This would grow his feeling of strangeness and double his chagrin.
Further, he bears himself responsible for change. So he start taking into account and care about the situation of Philistine and divorce the nonchalant life he was leading in the streets with his crew.
After that, the speaker poses a defying question as though his political awareness arisen once he start to care about the issues of life.
The question is set in a manner that the speaker nominates himself as responsible to end up the persecution and injustice in the world. Hence, he epitomizes the braveness of the small child with stones who defies the Israel soldiers protected by their tank as the source of this inspiration.

Finally, he brings up the talk about martyrs and especially, he mentions the symbolic corner in Philistine Jenin where they renowned. The racial extermination of Mujahidine and other massacres the establishment of Khilafa will end it and replace it with Justice of Allah.

By this he responded to the earlier question he raised: what it will take to put an end the oppression …?

Another question prompts the Youth not to delay and work hard for change this current situation is posed by Wissam this time in another verse.
He calls up the youth to Profit from time because life is short and they will regret inadequate actions when they will die.
So he calls them for repentance and set Sunnah as a weapon to succeed in tests of this life.
In addition, he exemplified the great loss of philistine as a sign that we fail in our tests of Allah.
Therefore, he calls the Muslims to unify their efforts and strive for one cause because what brings us together is one single deen.

The following verse calls each individual to stand up with himself for a self-assessment trial and take into his account not to hide the truth he knows, even though, it will cause uproar in the society where is living now; it will also end up oppression.

By that, the protection of Allah will have realized and the moral values and ethics of true believers will have gifted.

The believers will enchant the name of Allah the greatest to eulogize Allah be exalted fulfilling his promise of the victory of believers in the earth. Hence the celebrations will start.

Others who expect worthy reward; they will be rejected from the mercy of Allah, but al Mujahidine who were thought blunder will be recompensed the right reward from Allah.

The Mujahidine regret the others for not replying their call when the battle started.
However, a small number of Mujahidine they managed to win by the sustenance of firm faith of Allah.
The Jihad is the only way by which this triumph could return. For the other they are surprised by the immediate call for hour.

The speaker Sympathizes with the pain of Palestinians tortured and jailed by the occupation force starting a racial extermination of Muslims; while the international community arbitrates, they return the blame to Palestinian. However, this arbitration has any value because they only care about Allah’s judgment who blesses their devotion. Therefore, the speaker calls every Muslim to dedicate his deeds only to Allah alone as he will never deceive them.
The last verse calls for the mediation of Allah to prevail his religion on earth and recompense the oppressor with punishment they deserve and surmount the Mujahidine the reward he promised as had punished the people of Sodom and sustained Lut peace be upon him and our Prophet Mohammed Sala Allah alaihi wa Salam.
The Palestinians akin to Muslims shed pain and repression but they keep up courageous and solid with the faith they carry on as was the firmness of the Sword of Omar (radia allah alihi).
The speaker draw to a close contended with the victory of the Muminine as the Sunnah of Prophet salah Allah alaihi wa salam foretold that the conquest of Muslims will come with the dispatch of Mehdi and establishment of Khilafa.

[White Lily]

Assalamu Alikom
I knew that you will come out with a great critical essay and so it was . in fact it turned up to be more than great.
The ideas I would like to express can’t be expanded more but I would like to add some small points to his essay.
In the lyric “Digging their graves in Jenin ”this reflects how honest, courageous and religious those martyrs are . They know before facing their enemy that this might be the last day in their lives but they never care ‘coz they know that this is Jihad and Allah will grant them for it . Amen

In the whole lyric, the reader is left sure that this speaker is really searching for answers. The lines are sooo strong and the feeling of eagerness and strong emotion is very obvious. The reader feels the homesickness represented in all the lines of the lyric. In fact the reader’s mind is motivated to have a goal in his life too and so it does with shaping our own identity .this comes from the fact that the speaker knows his aim in life for this time which is seeking the answers. This makes us have our own questions to seek their answers. The Questions in this lyric might not be very obvious as they are not all written in question form but the speaker convinces us-readers -that there is an issue that needs to be discussed.
Some answers are actually provided in this lyric and others are not. That is why the lyric is ended with an open end as the speaker is still searching for answers and this also motivates us to think more about it and until then , he will be a stranger and a million miles a way

Another point to add is that the lyric is full of intertexuality. I.e. referring to cultural or religious aspects from out side the context to connect it with the textual information when needed
Here are some examples of the intertexuality in this lyric
Ain’t these youths like Dawud and Jalut
The lesson is set in Sunnah
Tanks like Elepahnts of Abraha
The mighty sword of Omar
All the nouns marked in red are examples and it is derived from Al Qasas Al Qur’ani(narrating stories in the Holy Quran)and it needs some knowledge of it to realize the similarity between each in its position. This leads to another point which is the targeted audience of the lyric: I think it is directed to Muslim readers coz they are more likely to understand these references. Besides, the non Muslim readers need to read more about Islam to get the whole idea and In Sha Allah, their eagerness to knowledge will lead them to convert to Islam as they will realize how PERFECT Islam is
As you mentioned earlier, the important thing is going back to Sunnah and the Islamic Khilapha and this is for sure the BIGGEST ANSWER for the underlying questions
Again your essay paraphrased the whole lyric in a very clear and skillful manner and I don’t think there is something more to add

After all (Al Islam Hoa Al hal
Islam is the only answer and the only solution
May Allah unite this Ummah of Mohammed salla Allahu Alihi Wasalam
And lead us to victory
Amen

[hearty00]

Asalam alikom sister, thanks for your valuable comments i really appreciated them. here are some additional points i would like to expand further, i hope you will enjoy reading my comments.
In order to fully appreciate what it is meant by the pronouncement “searching for Answers” we ought to engulf the general theme, anticipation, issues and goals of the speakers that lead them to call up this appeal.

I think the literal formation of questions is not important as long as the role it fulfills is.
The speakers as Muslims undergo a psychological condition featured by frustration, disappointment and failure. The utmost reason for this moral defeat relates to losing the way of the religion of Allah. This state is symbolized as being far million miles away.

So the form of the lyric does not come as a straightforward question that should be asked; but each one of us has to undertake his quest starting with a self-evaluation to get the better of what we are now and finally admit to our role to change.

The general quest is to go back to the religion of Islam; also the search of lost identity that the location of the speakers in the west hinders them to realize the uprising of their religion.
Therefore, the literal meaning of the expression “searching for Answers” expand to a call of every Muslim who is concerned with their self-existence that the Islamic identity forms its basis.

Philistine is taken as a symbolic place to represent the outcome of the failure of Muslims. As a way to say that the recuperation of Philistine would get our dignity back.

We should also mind the structure in which the Lyrics are made up. It begin with a dream, then it conversed it with the bitter reality, but at the end it be pleased about the victory of Muslims as it is prophesied in the Sunnah of rasoul (Sala Allah alainh wa saalam).
I think this structure hints the process each Muslim should proceed in order to realize the project of one Ummah.

[White Lily]

well, for the theme as you stated earlier ,it could be searhcing for answers as the title and the related theme is searching for a true Muslim identity. and I agree with you that the form does not matter as long as the massage is clear .this reminds me of a famous saying that states the most crazy acts of painters (artists) create a remarkable piece of
art

but when you say that palestine is used as a symbol, does this mean that it is just a mean and not an end itself? if this is what you mean then i guess i do not agree with this point coz the identity the speakers are searching for is an Islamic identity that will free Palestine . if it just a mean , then they wouldn't have expanded the idea into such explanations for all the misreries of Palestinian people and they would have spoke about other places such as Iraq and Afghanistan for instance in other verses to prove it . I'm not sure if I'm making my point clear . plz if it is not just tell me and I'll try to explain it in another way .as m not sure if i understand it myself.......:smailes21: just kidding
wa salamu Alikom

[hearty00]

yes sister , i think i was just repeating myself when i expand
more on the general theme of this track but i guess it is

worth to reemphasis that the search for Identity of Muslim is the basic concern of the writers.
i talked also about the process which was proposed by the lyrisist staring from dream , analysing the reality of life and the failure of Muslim by presenting the issues and trying to suggest some solution to the current crisis in Ummah.
so i guess if we take that the general theme as the search to answer the issue of identity especially that writers lives in west, then we will certainly understand the usage of Phlistine in this track. before that let's wonder why they have chosen to embody the issue of Philistine rather than any other crisis, namely as you stated the crisi of Iraq, Afganistane or any other issue.

i think the issue of Philistine is the source of the conflilct between the West an East
moreover the other crisises has arisen because Phlistine problem hasn't been solved.
that's why i think that Phlistine in this track and the other is more that a mean but is it the way to enhance one's identity if we ever care to search.

[White Lily]

ok, now i got your point about using Filisteen as a symbol

for the question you've posed, I think Palestine is not only used because it is the core of eastern\western conflict. it is also the main Religious conflict nowadays coz Al Aqsa mosque is mentioned in the Holy Quran in Surat Al Isra'. Besides, , freeing Palestine was one of the basic goals of all al Sahaba such as Omar and Abu Baker. Muslim- Jewish conflict started from loooooooooooong long long time and it continued till now and Only Allah knows when it will end. this makes it important for the lyrisist to chose Palestine precisly as the Islamic identity requies Khilapha, and Al Kholaf'a Al rashedeen all had Palestine as the main issue to deal with . do u agree with this . if not m waiting for ur argument
have a nice day

[hearty00]

i can't agree more , i guess we have reach a comprise on this point, for now we should maintain the discussion if you want around the very subject but analysing another lyric of if you would like to. this time i 's opt for this lyric called Geeza Strip (http://www.wass-up.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83592)

WG Reporting

Just the other day tanks rolled in smashing everything from the School-yard to the building. Gassing my hometown as they downed their shells on crowds to pound, thrashing. Bombs mashing drown the sounds. We cry why another grave (man)? Another round another blaze (man)? Bullets spray another prey, another brave man, made a pact so it’s on we stand our ground. Gotta act grab a stone cause the drone’s just a throw away (man) hound gotta pay (man). Save my fam and my own (man), stashing just a rock in my hand sling shot black hawk down crashing. What now? See me turning and dashing. Vowed somehow to liberate so we clashing with a passion, learning to ration, my mate got a bashing so I’m lashing with no Kalashnikov brov. Olive branch and a white dove: get stuffed!Got no love for fascist and ruling factions spurning my people’s right of return. Dawn raid sirens flashing and Gaza is burning (gov) yearning for action. Churning Shaheeds earning their patch and mansions. See even in Eid we bleed, whilst you eat them sweets. And hit the streets so you clubs to beats and move your feet puffin on hash and weed, whilst we’re getting beats as they club our knees, when we hit the streets to protect our peeps. Trust it’s all trauma, they bust and keep blasting but like a fashion It’s never lasting, we got diplomas for raw guts. And that’s the life we lead its pure drama you must have caught a glimpse on Panaroma.

AWAW Reporting

Call yourselves gansters emulating hoods and thugs and toting them guns and snorting them drugs.

Well integrated, now you live in the pubs, twist up your hip and lip with sisters at them late nightclubs, acting like misfits, rub in public on the red nightbus. And not a thought though we fight daily, you know us, the Gaza youth of Islam, maybe too grown up. The Deen is different in the West, I guess its just too tough? We don’t confess to know your problems but it don’t sound much (you jokers). In no position to be dosing they’re killing us while we’re wishing for an intermission. Unhealthy living cause the foundations give in eventually we all expect to see our bedrooms fall in to our kitchens. Now Baba’s (father) missing and its been two days having visions of rigormortis. He taught us that when they fought us to expect the worst. We curse the governments for slacking on their covenants, for sending regards instead of their armies. Now the lack of response is driving us barmy. How does Egypt respond? The border guards bar me. Ring the alarm, the situation’s lacking Islam. They build a wall to fence us in like Animal Farm. We vow to give up nothing though they’re roughing us up. Can’t get to school in case they shoot at the bus. A pistol whipping if your caught nipping out after class and that’s a blessing see the tanks roll in bringing much death in to the lesson, you bet it’s depressing. We’re pressing day by day to guard the Masjid yakhi we live this way. We have to dodge their Apaches on Monday, sneak Mama past the checkpoint Tuesday, no Baba cause they shot him Wednesday much harder now to find food Thursday, wahlahi if I had it my way, we’d all be living in Khilafah Friday, insha’Allah. Welcome to the Geezer Strip. Some call it the Gaza but we flipped the ******. I heard you got it dope but you’re smoking it. We trying to get to school without the pistol-whip, you get me! Welcome to Al-Aqsa’s home we carrying the light but in the dark we roam. Sons of Islam but under whom we’re grown? 1.5 billion why we home alone? Welcome to the Gezzer Strip. You watch it on the news while we’re feeling it. They’re trying to take Al-Aqsa we protecting it. You call yourselves gangsta’s but you don’t know

[White Lily]

Assalamu ALikom

From the title of the lyric, i was eager to read it as I live in Gaza Strip. but it is really hard to consider it as a lyric coz it sounds like a rap song . the words are really touching, but can you write it in lines ? to make it easier to understand.Besides, do u have a link to the sung form of it coz i think this will help . thnx again for sharing

[hearty00]

Assalamu ALikom

From the title of the lyric, i was eager to read it as I live in Gaza Strip. but it is really hard to consider it as a lyric coz it sounds like a rap song . the words are really touching, but can you write it in lines ? to make it easier to understand.Besides, do u have a link to the sung form of it coz i think this will help . thnx again for sharing

i am sorry sister for the delay, i was preoccupied with some stuff. khair inshallah i will give you the link where you can download the whole album inshallah
here you are http://rapidshare.com/files/11206944/dark_dayz.zip

[White Lily]

thank you very much for the link
i have downloaded it and I'm listening to the album right now

Jzk Allahu khairan

[hearty00]

you are welcome indeed sister

[White Lily]

Assalamu Alikom
Ok,I think the lyric desearve being analysed and m working on it right now

thnx again for the album

[hearty00]

ok sister i'm waiting to see your comments inshallah , i'm sorry of i delayed not to reply . expcet my essay soon :)

[hearty00]

We are caught in the middle of an unfair conflicts in the streets of Gaza with youth who bravely trying to defy the machinery power of the army with its best arsenal of Tanks moving to destroy public as well as private building. The youth of Gaza armed with the instinct to defend their extorted land confront death bravely. Meanwhile, the Israel army cast shells and bombs to part other crowds gathering to fight them.
The pain of the speaker after the separation of men who are chased by the perfidious army. Men who have not given the chance to fight in a fair battle and got stabbed in the back.
However this would let down the courage of the youngsters, yet they Agreed not to give up their position in fighting for their land.
The tools (stones, sling shots) by which they fight back are very primitive compared to the ones there are attacked by. Yet they effect on the enemy and could cause their harm as though there are fighting with rockets.
However, one of fighters is arrested by the enemy. He (the speaker) promised himself to liberate him but he didn’t find the proper mean by which he can manage to. He criticizes who think that their conflict might be settled by the process of Peace. He gives the reasons why Peace cannot be reached out in such manner because occupatiers disdain their legitimate rights.
However, one of fighters is arrested by the enemy. He (the speaker) promised himself to liberate him but he didn’t find the proper mean by which he can manage to. He criticizes who think that their conflict might be settled by the process of Peace. He gives the reasons why Peace cannot be reached out in such manner because occupatiers disdain their legitimate rights.
afterward, The speaker direct his speech to “a youngster” living in the west, who is Passing his time in clubs and addiction while Palestinian youth in his very age resisting the oppression of the Israelis.
he also nag their race (of youth) to imitate gangsters and prefer acting like they do, taking them as modeles in life.
.Then he pursed a comparison between the lives of youth in the west and the one in the Gaza particularly. The first one is characterized by a nonchalantly bahaviors that seek only to fulfill depraved desires; whereas the youth in Gaza for example fight daily in the streets to defend their cause
giving a mundan Depiction of the catastrophic situation in Gaza. The massacres of the Israel army that cause the loss of parental ties. Humanitarian situation is even worse because the responsible could not provide the nessacery requirements for life like water and food. this tough situation has lead the speaker to express his anger on goverment and the neighbouring countries like the goverment of Egypt. that The racist policy of the Israel government including the building of fences and walls to isolate the areas where the palistenian dwells also the exercise of machinery power in order to intimidate the powerless citizens. didn't prompt them to take a stand against these practices. he bitterly commented on this that "situation is lacking Islam.
The de******ion of the agony of the residences of Gaza they survive in a daily motion, all the days of the week. "
The rest of the lyric is a direct conversation from the youth of Gaza to the youth in west to hold responsibility and care about the pain their brothers and sisters survives on Gaza whereas there are lost in their nonchalant life trying to emulate what it is the worst of the western culture.

[White Lily]

Assalamu Alikom
As always, you have the initiative in every discussion so may Allah bless u . I was very busy lately and I couldn’t post my analysis so I hope this will make it up
First, let me start with some background about Gaza Strip. Gaza Strip (360 KM^2) locates in the southern part of Palestine. it consists of four major cities (Gaza, Deir Al Balah, Khan Younis , and Rafah). If people in Gaza strip want to go to the west bank to visit Al Aqsa mosque, they have to follow many procedures and to get some papers like a passport but ironically to get to another city within the same country- within the occupied Palestine. This is not as easy as it might appear to some coz people who are under 45 can’t go there coz they might BOMB their selves. Men who don’t have offspring can’t also go there coz they have nothing to go back to and they also might commit terror acts. Of course these are the excuses of the Israeli Army.
From the south,. i. e Rafah locates in the Egyptian borders and of course it was governed by the Israelis. People who want to travel abroad to study , to work , or to do what ever face lots of problems and for sure u witnessed the catastrophe of Rafah borders lately where many old people were trapped there with nothing and many died out there waiting for some one to allow them to enter their own land.
Gaza Strip might be considered the largest prison in the world. Even after the withdrawal of the Israeli Army and the cancelling of the settlements in Gaza Strip. Israelis still play with Gaza strip like a chess pieces. The warships are all over the sea and many fishermen were killed early in the morning doing their jobs. Many others were arrested. Above this, you might have seen the little girl(Huda Ghalia) after the withdrawal crying her father. It was really horrible as the warships killed all of her family while they were swimming in the sea. She cried Daddy and her cries were carved in my heart. It was sooo touching and the westren media reported it as of the acts against the Palestinian terrorist. you can check it on this link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WaCJn4hdjc&mode=related&search (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WaCJn4hdjc&mode=related&search)=

And for sure Israel have to defend itself right there in the beach of Gaza Strip as those SWIMMING PEOPLE might threaten the security of the Israelis


That was about the sea, but that is not it. People all over the world like looking to the sky late at might to see the stars but here we might mix between a star and a rocket coming out from F 16 or some other DEFENSIVE machine to shot a car or some citizens in the street. Lots of times when I was at school , students were asked to lay on the floor coz there are many combat plans are there and the sound of the F16 or the Apaches getting reading to HUNT some one or something
And from the four boarders now, Israeli’s troops, tanks and bulldozers invade and destroy the houses anf farms of the people. Lately Gaza International airport in Rafah was completely destroyed. It was the only airport in Gaza Strip. Every year, people get worried as they might not be able to travel to Saudi Arabia to Al Hajj. And for the food and medical stuff, it does not enter Gaza until we have the permission from Israel and for sure this permission might take ages
Sorry for this long essay, and if I sound like news reporter, but I thought this might be very helpful when understanding the real situation is Gaza Strip. For sure this is not every thing and words can’t express every thing. Now after this, don’t we Palestinian people have the right to defend our selves and to fight, even with a stone…. This whole situation created fighter and Mujahedeen and with our faith, we know that Allah will help us and sooner or later, victory will be ours in Sha Allah, Amen
Next, I will provide an analysis for the lyric and some connection with our current situation
Thnx 4 ur time

[hearty00]

I come out with mixed feelings once I read your comment. I do not know whether to feel sorry for all the adversity you are surviving in Gaza or to be proud of you, of the patient that Allah has endowed on you, whatsoever you endure you still keep your Faith up and your feet plant firmly. ان الله مع الصابرين} {

May Allah (be exalted) grant Jannah for you people of Gaza and all al Mujahidine for the cause of Allah his all hearing {انه سميع مجيب الدعوات}

You have started your essay talking about the geographical and demographical characteristics of Gaza. I also think it is so important to tackle this particularity while talking about Gaza; because as some analysts argue that the proximity of Gaza to Egypt and [the movement of the Muslim brothers الاخوان المسلمين] has definitely contributed on forming an Islamic ideology of people of Gaza, especially, the leaders of Hamas. Whereas; the people of west bank were more exposed to propagandas of modernity and secularity.

It is been obvious now that onslaught and attack that has been projecting Gaza mainly is not a mere coincidence; but they have been planting since Hamas was elected.
{وكذلك جعلنا في كل قرية اكابر مجرميها ليمكروا فيها و ما يمكرون الا بانفسهم و ما يشعرون} الانعام 123


And thus have We made in every city great ones of its wicked ones, that they should plot therein. They do but plot against themselves, though they perceive not. An’am 123

Believe me it is not a coincidence that you are surviving all this. Allah (the most wiser) tests the faith in the hearts of Man by these trials. Allah able to do that is able to render you victorious. {و كان علينا حق نصر المؤمنين}

[White Lily]

Sorry for taking so long in posting but as you know the beginning of each semester is soooo busy

You are absolutly right. with our faith in Allah, we know that victory is ours and we realize that sooner or later Muslims will defeat the jews. it is mentioned in the holy Quran which is the strongest evidence ever. With Jihad, In sha Allah, ALLAh will grant us Al Jannah and for us , there is no goal better that wininng paradise , is there !!thank you for your Du'a and may Allah grant you , your family and Muslims all over the world Al Janna ,Amen


Believe me it is not a coincidence that you are surviving all this. Allah (the most wiser) tests the faith in the hearts of Man by these trials. Allah able to do that is able to render you victorious


well, this really made me so optimistic coz u reminded me of how lucky we are to live in this holy land . thnx for this .

A final point to add is that people in gaza strip did not and will not stop fighting despite the fact that the israeli soldires are not reachable as before but with Allah help , every thing is possible including making us victorious with our limited resources and machinary. this brings us back to the lyric you've post b4 which is Searching for Answers . in that lyric , the final estimation was that Islam will unite us and people all over the muslim countries and with al khilapha , ,unity will be soo close. and as the famous motto says (United we won,divided we lose).. ofcourse this brings us to the points of similarity between the two lyrics of the same band . they were able to feel the misery and the real situation in Palestine either in Gaza Strip or in the west bank. i don't think that they have ever been to Palestine but the deep insight reflects how distinguished the writer of this lyric is . i'm saying this coz i know that media is very often very miss - leading resource of information especially the western media.
again excuse me for this delay and in sha Allah , I'll try to answer sooner next time
Ramadan Kareem and jazaka Allahu Kol Khair

[hearty00]

Salam Alikom sister may you be in good health and best Imane and everyone in your family.
Ramadan Mubarak for you all. May Allah accept our Du’a in this month to free Philistine.
Alhamdolilah, you insist the contact in this thread be constant, although the difficulties you undergo in Gaza and we hear in the news. May Allah amplify your patience.
I should say do not bother yourself to be sorry each time for any delay, though we keep waiting impatiently for your important point of view in the matters we discuss.
Now I feel guiltier than you for this interruption believe it was beyond my will.
I am awfully sorry for not replying on your comments.

Alhamdolilah we agree that we should keep confident that victory is on our side, if we only keep faith on Allah firmly. It is just a matter of time that we see our dreams and Du’a been realized.

The point that we didn’t agree upon is the impact of Islamic movement on either the people of Gaza or West bank. Actually, I should have précised and make my point clear that that inspiration of “Ikhwane Muslimine” was more or less adopted by the political movement definitely not by the people themselves. I understand that people, especially, in our Arabic and Muslims societies do not act upon a particular ideology. The need and aspiration to defend our land does not need a sagacity or a good judgment to realize that. It is clearly a deposit and instinct in the human being. Unfortunately, all process of Peace does not confirm this natural right that Hamas and other political movement that resist the occupation in the Philistine, instead, they consider them as terrorist groups. This play on terms that Jews and westerners was the theme of a Lyric I had put it up before, I think this the appropriate place to share it with you.
The title of this poem is Shalom, Peace, but Salam rules.

That it is to say, that seems clearly that each of us we Muslim, Jews and even westerners have got their own idea about what it is “Salam” ; how, when and where “Salam” will be reachable. I preserved this order and I keep presenting the definition and the point of view of this three communities or civilization consecutively. Inshallah I am waiting for you interaction but not immediately,, until, you will find the appropriate time for writing. Take care sister and keep praying for each other.

Shalom, Peace, but Salam rules



A conflict over land
Thought to be solved
Applying the international law
The so called fanatic religious though
Get in the way of the rule of law

Islamic fundamentalism
American media is rife with
The abhorrence they feed
Unaware of the genuine fanaticism
Jewish chauvinism shed

Shalom is the Jewish salutation
They all congregate for its connotation
Making it worthy for parting
And can not be work for a meeting

America hands the only democracy in the area
Assembling Jews, Christians, and foes
Who hamper the realization of the Promised Land.
Only the blood of the theft of land
Worthy for redeeming the holy land

This is celebrated
By a puzzling marriage of fanaticisms
Espousing Zionists and new Jesuitism trying
Bringing the return of the second coming
The so-called Dispensationalist new-belief willing
Calling the Jews fulfilling them cataclysmic “rapture.”

Peace is the heartsease anthraxes seeds
Some paranoid psychosis cultivating
But harvesting aids and wrathful gifts of lifts
Hook for an eternal ordeal in the red region.

Heavenly Doves in open sky swam
Guiding one message of a code of life
Willing the earth to encode
Hoping the hawk eating Halal instead of grub
Dropping rain of mercy instead of the roar of wrath
Calling one brotherhood instead of bloodbath
Calling one brotherhood instead of bloodbath
Calling one deen

Allah bears the name of Salam Asalam
Alaman aman alnaas wa alamin
Those encoded words for Man to expose a disclosed distain
Unalterable to a wicked wish of Bush, Blair oulmart or Brown
Abbas don’t you know that I hold not white Foulard up but down
Only my coffin a white sheet confine
Don’t you know that nun the Zionist 14th alphabet only what they can pronounce
Don’t say Shalom or Peace only say Salam
Allah bears the name of Salam Asalam
Alaman aman alnaas wa alamin.
Allah bears the name of Salam Asalam
Alaman aman alnaas wa alamin.

[White Lily]

Assalamu ALiokm once again
hope every one who is reading this discussion is okay
I think that was it for this lyric and untill we propose a new title
i'll be here to participate in sha Allah

My best wishings are with brother hearty00
May Allah grant you with success and prosperity
Good day to every one

[White Lily]

Assalamu Alikom
I think it is a waste to let this section die, so please any one who have any suggestions for a work to discuss please don't hesitate

[White Lily]

In sha Allah, I'll start analysing a sonnet for Shakespeare

it's entitled Shall I Compare Thee to a Summer's Day

[White Lily]

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day
Thou art more lovely and more temperate
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May
And summer's lease hath all too short a date
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines
And often is his gold complexion dimm'd
And every fair from fair sometime declines
By chance or nature's changing course untrimm'd
But thy eternal summer shall not fade
Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow'st
Nor shall Death brag thou wander'st in his shade
When in eternal lines to time thou grow'st
So long as men can breathe or eyes can see
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee

[hearty00]

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day
Thou art more lovely and more temperate
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May
And summer's lease hath all too short a date
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines
And often is his gold complexion dimm'd
And every fair from fair sometime declines
By chance or nature's changing course untrimm'd
But thy eternal summer shall not fade
Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow'st
Nor shall Death brag thou wander'st in his shade
When in eternal lines to time thou grow'st
So long as men can breathe or eyes can see
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee


------------------------


The author is confused to determine which natural phenomenon mostly goes with the featurs of his beloved.

Supposedly, the inspiration he got for his beloved goes beyond the limites of time and place.

That's the reason why the author depicts all but the fading natural phenomenon.stating the spiritual

inclination can not be tolerated by concreate material which is governed by temporally existence.

the author is trying to defy the law of nature by exposing these lines (sonnet) that would inspire

the love he holds for his lovers in the eyes of the readers of sonnet, hence, he eternlises feeling

that will not die but live and revived whenver his sonnet would be read. By doing this author shed

his love beyond the constrains of time and place or nature, thereof his lover being immortalised forever (maybe).

[angelios_san]

a famous sonnet, and a well earned fame indeed
it was the part where he explained how her beauty was eternal that i liked, but we all know that all "summers" fade
and thus no beauty can last, it will all turn into winter someday

[hearty00]

What it is more prominent in this sonnet is these very lines

When in eternal lines to time thou grow'st
So long as men can breathe or eyes can see
So long lives this, and this gives life to thee



where he claims that he is going to immortalize the beauty of his lover and time and space can not defeat it, as everyone is going to read this sonnet he is going to witness this fact.

[kju]

Hi everyone I am glad to find this forum to be with you this is my first participant. I like your topic about discussions novels, I was always looking for something like that finaly I found it here please let me know where are you now what are you reading about it and what are you doing often ,do you but summery or just talking or main an idea or what please let me understand before starting

thank a lot all

[White Lily]

Welcome sister to this forum
I'm glad you like this discussio. well , one of us usually suggests a work to analyse and then we start reading it, then commiting. we don't write only summaries but we add our comments and interpretation and we relate it to an Islamic percpective. If you have any idea or further questions to ask plz don't hesitate
:smailes103:welcome all the time

[hearty00]

I have just come to realise that a new member has joined Literary Discussion Thread.
:smailes58:
Welcome sister. It has been more than a year, since we have been discussing some literary works we read.

As you can witness yourself, we have improved our style in Writing, though we still need to learn more.

Unluckily; we have been lazy recently, as we do not post much as before.

I hope the new members who have just joined, would refresh this spot, in order to learn from each other.

So from now on, we should pay more heed to this place and try to make it beneficial and interactive indeed.

I wish the English attendees of this forum would take notice and participate more and more.

Sister « WitheLily » suggested that we shall try to write the analysis under the requests of the attendees, so anyone who is reading any Literary work and wants to discuss it. This is the place where you can get a new perspective of what you read

[kju]

hi everyone Iam so sorryyyyyyyyyyy I didn't know about it befor but I am here know I like to work with you .I have suggestion about a novel I just foun it it is called
( Black and Blue: A Novel)
Quindlen, Anna
if you like to start in this one just let me know or if you have another on also just let me know

[hearty00]

Asalam alikom all,

Thank you for suggesting this Novel, I am not ignoring your post , it is just I did not find the Novel you proposed yet. I am still looking for it though, once i will find it i will post.

Please just post something about it if you start reading it

Thank you for time

[kju]

Asalam alikom

thank uoy to answered me I thought you are busy or uoy don't have any more time for it
please if you don't find a novel we can change it to another one

again thank you for didn't ignor

all best

[hearty00]

Wasalam alikom,

I think we better change this book because i did not find it.

I am sorry for that , but i tried everything to put my hand on this book, hence, my efforts were unavailing.
I think if we are going to pick a book next time we got to make if it is available for everybody only by using this website that provides free Novels> http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page

By the way i am reading this book , it is not a fictional work, rather it is self-help you can download it in this link >http://www.4shared.com/file/39592906/5b8b65b6/Mind_Mapping_and_Variants.html?s=1

[kju]

I am sorry but the website didn't open with me could you please write down a book's name
don't worry I can find any book easily.and let me know
how many pages have to read when suppost to post what we think
thank uoy

[wello_77]

thanks alot

[hearty00]

I am sorry but the website didn't open with me could you please write down a book's name
don't worry I can find any book easily.and let me know
how many pages have to read when suppost to post what we think
thank uoy

Asalam alikom,

The name of the book we are going to discuss is "Animal Farm" by Orwell, George. with regard how much we should read before posting a comment, i used to comment on chapter by chapter with sister Whitelily. I think if it is possible we can do the same think, unless you have another proposition . wasalaam amd thank you for your interest.

[White Lily]

Assalamu ALikom
I didn't find the book black and blue either. the one i found wasn't for the same writer you posed sister Kju . anyway, I have the text of Animal Farm and I think it is a good choice . I'll start reading the first chapter In sha Allah

[hearty00]

Salam sister White lily, I am reading Animal Farm rightnow. Hopefully, this work will generate a good discussion. Inshallah

Thank you for your time:)

[White Lily]

Assalamu ALikom
Pardon me for being absent from the discussion
I won't be able to post until the 26th of May coz' of my final exams
but In sha Allah , I'll resume after

[White Lily]

Assalamu Alikom Bramjnet fans
I'm glad to be back
but sad as i see this thread dying
i hope more of you will start sharing the conversation and the discussion